Thread: SNF and what it should be.....

Saturday Night Fights are supposed to be a fun... organized.. regulars only "scrim" (and i used that word loosely). And most of the time it is... however recently its become nothing but lopsided, disorganized, and sometimes controlled by a couple people who do what they want without considering others. Now before i go any further... I'm sure i may come off as bitchy.. or whiny here... and i dont doubt ill be flamed for what I'm saying here.. but just take it with a grain of salt and realize that I'm simply expressing my opinion.. and bringing up facts and issues that were brought up in team chat recently during SNFs. Heres some simple complaints about SNF recently:

#1: It has been disorganized recently. Now this is not for lack of effort..... when panics not around others pick up the slack... however often times it feels like its not a "community" environment and several big names have their way with how the SNF goes. This could easily be resolved by votes instead of everyone just yelling out what they want.

#2: To go along with the above statement... the Map picking is horrid. While i understand the want to play maps we dont play every day in the TTP server... keep in mind that some people may not know those maps very well if at all... or bear in mind that some of those maps are not built for a 10v10 scrim environment. This often creates problems whether it be people leaving or teams being unfair. The maps that should be played are maps that everyone would know.... and that are built for 20 players.. not 10. I also don't see why the way a map is decided is everyone just screams out maps and often times the map thats decided upon isn't even one that a majority wants. Why not get several suggestions and have everyone vote for the map...

#3: Awps (and autosnipers). Just like in the TTP server sometimes it turns into an awp fest. Unlike the TTP server there isn't a "vote" to turn them off. Also unlike the TTP server this is a more organized set up so its easier for the awper to know where people are on the map. This creates both problems and drama. No one likes to be facing a wall of awps wherever they go.... thats no fun at all. The simple fact is that weapons is overpowered to begin with and is disliked a great deal by many people. Yes i know its part of the game... but it doesn't belong in a server with a large amount of people on it.... nor on certain maps that have choke points galore... Perhaps restricting the number of awps.. or putting up awp/auto votes if one team is dominating another badly with them...

#4: Captains and Teams. Now this is a tricky subject... Obviously the ideal situation would be even captains and even teams.. but that just doesn't happen often. The captains ideally should be mostly equal in skill level and knowledge of most of the players in SNF. To add to this.... clans need to be split up to some degree. I remember last week EvO had their entire team (5-6 people) on one team and it led to them destroying the other team. A full scrim/CAL clan team on one side just isn't fair and we should all know that.... they have the experience and knowledge to probably take out the other team even if it was just them 6 without the 4 extra bodies against 10.

#5: Last of all.... it needs to be kept in mind that scrims are 5v5.... not 10v10 in CSS. SNF cant be treated as a scrim.... it can be set up similar to a scrim sure.. but it cant be looked at as a scrim. Because of that the decisions that are made and rules that are followed should not be those of an actual scrim. Tonight was somewhat an example of that. CAL maps being played... awps galore with quickswitching and bunny hopping allowed... and so on. It made a lot of people unhappy including myself and before you tell me to suck it up and play... you have to realize that i was by no means alone in being irritated by the state of affairs. Quite a few folks left or threatened to leave... and there was constant bitching (yes from me as well).

So with all that layed out there for you (provided you actually read it all).... i want you to realize that this is simply something to start a dialog and discussion... and not to start a flame war. If i wanted that i would of named names.... SO PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL AND JUST HAVE A GOOD DEBATE AND DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT. Thank you...

wow i read the whole thing and agree completely

i just haven't actually been around much for these saturday fights to actually witness what goes on

Well i will agree on the fact that picking maps is...not organized. And 2 awps and autoes per team would be nice.

#1 - Yes, it is unorganized, especially when Panic doesn't have it set up in Steam Community to remind us when to hop in there. I do think that we did the best with what we got tonight though. Bunni decided to take care of the admin responsabilities and I started sending messages to everybody on steam friends to hop in and play. Sl!ppy and xplodr got in and started helping me out, thanks a lot for that, the both of you. As for votes, from what I understand, no mani on the match server, so that's an issue you'll have to give to the higher-ups. I'm all for votes, but as it stands, there's not much we can do about it.

#2 - Just as Keiron said, we usually try and get the server full of regs. We play the maps (even the custom ones) enough on TTP that most everyone should know what is going on. You are correct, most of these maps are not built for a 10v10 scrim environment; however, we play these same maps 10v10 on the regular servers everyday. Dust2 was originally a 5v5 scrim map, but now look at what it has become. I also think that Bunni tried his best to determine what the majority of the server wanted to play, but with no mani, that is a bit difficult.

#3 - From what I understand, SNF is supposed to be an escape from what normally goes on the regular servers. It's supposed to be something different to break the monotony that CS can sometimes bring. You start throwing up awp/auto votes, then how does this differintiate SNF from the regular servers. Despite what many people claim by calling the AWP a noob cannon, it's not an easy weapon to use all of the time. For me at least, it takes a lot more time and effort to become good with the awp, than to become good with an m4 or ak.

#4 - The captains should be of about equal skill, but what can you do? Those who want to be a captain, step up and be a captain. Tonight I was a captain, I usually am at least once a week because in my experience it's not a very desirable position to be in, and there usually aren't a lot of people that want that responsability. If you think that you could pick a good team, by all means step up and say something, and you will be able to pick your team as you see fit. Now about breaking up clans: since there are two captains, clans can be broken up as is seen fit. If you don't want EvO, or tCz, or Killers, or WMC, or Reborn, or whoever to be together, then break them up. I know when I pick a team though, I'm probably going to be picking all of my clanmates because I know that they can pull there weight, and will give me a really good chance of winning. If you don't want us on the same team, then pick us, one captain has just as much right to a player as the other.

#5 - Why can't it be looked at as a scrim? You can find a 10v10 scrim on IRC just like you can find a 5v5. I noticed tonight that on fire there seemed to be a particularly large amount of complaing, a map that is not even in the CAL rotation this season. Later in the night, we played Piranesi, another map that isn't on the CAL rotation. Since I'm approaching this as a 10v10 scrim, I've got no problem with quickswitching, bunnyhoping, or anything sans hacking or exploiting. If you want to outlaw quickswitching, and there are enough people that support this, then I guess it will get changed, but as it stands now there is no rule against it in the SNF.

I understand where you are coming from on a lot of these issues, and although I may not agree with you on some, it's good to get them out in the open so that we can get them resolved and get back to enjoying us some SNF!

1. Treat your team as if they were part of your clan instead of sending players to their deaths and sticking with your buddies/clan.

2. If you wanna fart around, don't play in SNF, play with me in the regular server

3. 2 awps per team, and yes, IT IS an easy weapon to use, there are people who can use it better, but in the end, one shot to the body is all it takes.

I thought SNF was just regulars getting together with a more serious game face, and less screaming and chatting on the mic. allowing for more organization and FUN, yay fun, I didn't realize there were so many issues at hand...counter-strike drama island geeeeez

STOP BEING JERKS PEOPLE! GAWD!

I'm glad people are taking the time to discuss this in a civilized matter and i wish to respond with 3 points.

#1 - I understand the comments about it being treated as a scrim... however you simply cant view a 10v10 environment the same as a 5v5 environment. Especially on certain maps. When your playing maps with choke points there is going to be a HUGE difference between a 10v10 and 5v5 organized scrim. I think many of your are mistaken in comparing the regular TTP server 10v10 environment to the 10v10 SNF environment. For one.. theres a LOT more communication and strategy in SNF then in the regular server. This is simply because SNF is regulars whereas the TTP public server is a mix of regulars, noobs, and new players who may not have a full grasp on the TTP style yet.

#2 - The first 2 maps we played last night are almost never played on the TTP regular server. I'm not quite sure why people are saying russka and fire are commonly played on the TTP regular server because thats simply not true. I heard multiple people on my team complaining that they didn't know the maps... and when you have awps every which way it turns a map your trying to learn into a deathtrap no matter where you turn. I know its a bummer to play the same old same old all the time.. but keep in mind that a more commonly played map is a better test for the 2 teams in a scrim than maps that some people know and some don't and that are not really built well for so many players. Russka especially is a horrible map for a 10v10 "scrim" in my opinion.

#3 - A side point id like to throw out there is if we are picking teams... and people show up late.. we need to evenly balance the late folks. Last night there was a clear unbalance created by the folks who came late and got just thrown on the teams. It certainly didn't help that i was first pick on the other side when there were a good 5+ better people than me available. Thats another example of needing captains who know most if not all of the players well.... although i know its whoever chooses to step up and props to you if you do step up even if your a bad captain ^.^

--- Lastly id like to apologize to Bunni.....

Originally Posted by Bunni

As Keiron said,

Originally Posted by sL!ppY

and sometimes controlled by a couple people who do what they want without considering others.

Since i am the only other one who host snf to my knowledge ill take this as directed at me. As for controlling snf, i did my best to get everyone's opinion of what the next map should be, i even started tallying the votes, if it went to one map its because people voted for it not because i did what i want with out considering others, I don't know what to tell you, those maps are what the community wanted, not much to do about that, THEY asked for it.
If you believe I'm wrong let me know and i can prove this as well

This was by no means directed at you... You put the effort into starting and trying to set SNF up last night.. however there are situations where certain players opinions seem to be considered while others are ignored. Its not you and you alone Bunni.. its something I, and others, have noticed happening in SNF. This may be because whoever is running SNF doesn't hear everyone when people are talking over one another... or it could be because subconsciously people do tend to side with their teammates even if its wrong.... or it could be a variety of other reasons... but believe me when i say that i heard several complaints that i wont repeat here... about certain folks having the ear of the admin during several SNF nights and molding that nights SNF into what they or their clan wants. Please don't take this as a direct attack at anyone or any clan in particular... its an observation that needs to be put out there. A voting system would help this because it would take everyones opinion in the server into consideration but as was stated thats something that the higher ups have to decide upon.

#1 - I completely agree, a 10v10 scrim is much, much, much different than a 5v5 scrim. However, since 10v10's are much more uncommon, naturally people will divert back to what they know.

#2 - I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this one. In the past 2 months, I've seen fire played on the regular server probably 4 or 5 times, and russka played probably 3 or 4 times. These are maps that I think any well-seasoned Counter-Strike player should know. They are common enough to get played semi-regularly but uncommon enough that they're not yet old and stail.

#3 - Yes, we definately need to evenly balance out the teams. Last night on fire a lot of wrong and incorrect team-joining went down. Mako joined shortly after we were through picking teams and just joined the T side; no problem with Mako, but we had previously that the next player to join would go ct, the one after t, and so forth. However, Mako was instructed by many people on the ct side to just stay put, and they'd get the next one. This was going against what we had previously agreed upon. Shortly after this happened, Mad Mardigan left, my 4th overall pick. I was a bit unhappy that I had in fact wasted such a high draft pick on someone that wouldn't play the map. After this happened Duddy joined the game and decided to come T. I think that this was fair since we had lost such a high draft pick and he SHOULD have been our player anyway. So now, if I'm not mistaken, the teams are set at 9 to 9, and we begin our match. Three rounds in, Silas joins the game and joins the team that was losing 3-0, the terrorists. I do not agree with his decision, he should have joined the CT side, it was what was previously agreed on, and I even informed him of that; but, it is a staple of TTP that when a reg joins the server, he should try and join the losing team, you can't fault a guy for trying to be a good teamplayer.

I haven't scrimmed before, hence I hit auto when I joined.