Thread: Improving de_dust

On a silly note maybe some tpg banners , rules, area naming signs,creators name thru out the map and a server to play this map and other tpg community made materials .Once you completed this I`m pretty sure othersmaps will be made in the same spirit .
Would be cool to see a server that runs nothing but tpg custom content or community selected content .
I think it`s a cool idea max maybe inlist some help and make it a team effort.

Originally Posted by Madmax (Grape)

Thanks for the encouraging words everyone!


It seems to me that an equilateral triangle is best representative of the distances and timings of maps, like so:


Here is a triangle representation of the dust that I have modified, to give an idea of timing:

And here is an overview of the map, minus T spawn which is mostly unchanged:

now that it's broken down to more abstract components, you'll see why dust is basically flawed. it's not the right-ish triangle that you've posted, it's worse. the ct's don't move anywhere for a site, and only move diagonally to b. t's on the other hand, move out of spawn, up to tunnels, then left into b... if you actually draw out the routes, you'll see it doesn't resemble anything close to a regular or equiangular polygon... it is a very odd shape (not that that can't work, it would just require imbalancing in other areas to make up for it).

i would go so far as to say the tunnel from a to b for ct's actually makes it even harder for t's to take b by giving them both the front route to stack (as usual) and a back route to access camp spots... then a fast and safe rotation back to a should things go the other way (of course that's just theorycraft. needs actual playtest).

i'm not saying this map is forever screwed, plenty of people still enjoy it. but... i think it requires some different thinking to make it.... like a separate route out of t spawn to b (like the banana you suggested) or maybe modifying mid such that the ct's can't really access it well, thus giving the t's a chance to split b from both the tunnel and the doors.

and maybe put that new b connector tunnel underneath the overpass instead of just beyond it (so ct's can see it from their perch, but you don't have to run out from under the tunnel to access it). think more of a diamond shape to get it there.

I think he fixed the main "problem" people have with D1. I don't really see the need for a A to B connector for rotations. B is easy enough to take back. Once you added the B tuns, and removed the separating wall above the underpass you made it even enough. Ct's now have two ways in and out of B, and that's enough to take back the site. All that was needed for the map was to take more ct's out of A and put them by underpass to spread them out more.

The door in A worries me with people getting stuck and slowing down the rush, but that's an easy fix. Other than that, like I said, all you really need is to give the Ct's a little more reason to spread out so its not a 7-3 split A and overpass. That would make it even.

what dust needs is a 3rd vein to one of the sites, most easily done by either a vein from T's side of the area where theres a ramp down to go into underpass, a vein on that side to go into B. Especially since the only enterences to B can be covered from a single position.

Or a vein to go from T spawn somewhere to A. Id like to see one to B though, that would even the map traffic perfectly. An additional vien to A would lopsided the traffic and weight heavily twords A.

Most successful maps have 3 veins from the offensive's sides spawn. Dust is one of the few (prodigy and tides are more examples) which only has two veins leading from the offensives spawn. Because of this the map becomes unbalanced. What ever you do decide to do, you need to ensure the timings (time it takes each side to: get to the new vein, transverse the vein, reach the destination by transversing the vein, relative to the time it takes defense to get there) are proper and not too lopsided.

Usually though most popular/fav'ed DE maps have two main directions into a given site, with one direction having two enterences facing the same direction (ex dust2 A: 1)long, 2)CT spawn/ Cat, B: 1) tunnels, 2) ct spawn double doors/ window, inferno A: 1) banana, 2) ct spawn/construction, B: 1) main / ct spawn side/ library, 2) apartments/ apartment side of mid, etc). Just ensure your new vein does not completely fuck over defence (EX most cs_assult modifications have some kind of hole in the roof, this makes T's sitting ducks). So again, ensure your new vein adds more tactical means then those it takes away.


Also you need to ensure that the means in which you impliment your new vein, does not instill a new area into the map that COMPLETELY relocates the firefights (keyword completely)
If you want pm me or steam message me some time, and ill sit down with you on a white-board collaboration tool and draw out some possible viens for dust with you.

Originally Posted by (2)manno

now that it's broken down to more abstract components, you'll see why dust is basically flawed. it's not the right-ish triangle that you've posted, it's worse. the ct's don't move anywhere for a site, and only move diagonally to b. t's on the other hand, move out of spawn, up to tunnels, then left into b... if you actually draw out the routes, you'll see it doesn't resemble anything close to a regular or equiangular polygon... it is a very odd shape (not that that can't work, it would just require imbalancing in other areas to make up for it).

The triangles were just representations of timings/distance, not supposed to represent specific shape of the map. I'll put my triangle on the actual map:

Which leads me to agree with:

Originally Posted by (2)manno

and maybe put that new b connector tunnel underneath the overpass instead of just beyond it (so ct's can see it from their perch, but you don't have to run out from under the tunnel to access it). think more of a diamond shape to get it there.

Funny you should mention that, because after reading your post and replying with my triangle, I did this exact change. It makes it so its a separate route completely rather than just part of the same choke point. But, I still want to test out what I have so far, because my changes could have a synergistic effect and change things in ways we can't easily imagine.

Originally Posted by (2)manno

i would go so far as to say the tunnel from a to b for ct's actually makes it even harder for t's to take b by giving them both the front route to stack (as usual) and a back route to access camp spots... then a fast and safe rotation back to a should things go the other way (of course that's just theorycraft. needs actual playtest).

Correct, it does make it harder for Ts to take A, but remember that the CTs will be more spread out, so instead of 6+ CTs going A, there might only be 4 now.

Originally Posted by (2)manno

i'm not saying this map is forever screwed, plenty of people still enjoy it. but... i think it requires some different thinking to make it.... like a separate route out of t spawn to b (like the banana you suggested) or maybe modifying mid such that the ct's can't really access it well, thus giving the t's a chance to split b from both the tunnel and the doors.

I could do this by changing spawn postions. I don't want to if I don't have to though.

Originally Posted by Adretheon

I think he fixed the main "problem" people have with D1. I don't really see the need for a A to B connector for rotations. B is easy enough to take back. Once you added the B tuns, and removed the separating wall above the underpass you made it even enough. Ct's now have two ways in and out of B, and that's enough to take back the site. All that was needed for the map was to take more ct's out of A and put them by underpass to spread them out more.

That was part of the reason I added the A-B connector. Usually on dust, the CTs push up and cover the area that overlooks the underpass. While they can still do this, the Ts will now be able to counter them on an equal footing there, so more CTs will be apt to play the site rather than push way up unnecessarily. So what used to be a quick rotation from mid to A is now a much longer rotation from the back of B to mid. I thought that the CTs could use the route from the back of one site directly to the other so that they could rotate more effectively to somewhat counteract the fact that they have to spread out more and play more passively.

Originally Posted by Adretheon

The door in A worries me with people getting stuck and slowing down the rush, but that's an easy fix. Other than that, like I said, all you really need is to give the Ct's a little more reason to spread out so its not a 7-3 split A and overpass. That would make it even.

Yeah, we'll have to see about the door. And I agree, I need to carve out more distinct routes to prohibit the CTs from camping only 2 areas. The underpass change that I am working on should help with that.

Originally Posted by Bunni

what dust needs is a 3rd vein to one of the sites, most easily done by either a vein from T's side of the area where theres a ramp down to go into underpass, a vein on that side to go into B. Especially since the only enterences to B can be covered from a single position.

Or a vein to go from T spawn somewhere to A. Id like to see one to B though, that would even the map traffic perfectly. An additional vien to A would lopsided the traffic and weight heavily twords A.

Most successful maps have 3 veins from the offensive's sides spawn. Dust is one of the few (prodigy and tides are more examples) which only has two veins leading from the offensives spawn. Because of this the map becomes unbalanced. What ever you do decide to do, you need to ensure the timings (time it takes each side to: get to the new vein, transverse the vein, reach the destination by transversing the vein, relative to the time it takes defense to get there) are proper and not too lopsided.

Usually though most popular/fav'ed DE maps have two main directions into a given site, with one direction having two enterences facing the same direction (ex dust2 A: 1)long, 2)CT spawn/ Cat, B: 1) tunnels, 2) ct spawn double doors/ window, inferno A: 1) banana, 2) ct spawn/construction, B: 1) main / ct spawn side/ library, 2) apartments/ apartment side of mid, etc). Just ensure your new vein does not completely fuck over defence (EX most cs_assult modifications have some kind of hole in the roof, this makes T's sitting ducks). So again, ensure your new vein adds tatical means, and does not take them away.

If you want pm me or steam message me some time, and ill sit down with you on a white-board collaboration tool and draw out some possible viens for dust with you.

I think my new route to B should supply that 3rd vein. But I would love to see your specific routes. Could you make some type of image file and add veins to the overview of the map? You can use the one I posted on page two.

Thanks for the feedback!

Originally Posted by PMD

The A rush as it is now is like a B rush on D2. I timed it last night and to get to the entrance from both T and CT spawn was about the same amount of time.

However, B side is still not too healthy. CTs can be looking at the underpass 10 seconds after they spawn, however T's get there 15 seconds after they spawn. That's alot of time for the CTs to be ready for almost anything. However there's a headshot box on the overpass that can allow T's to pick the CTs across. I'm not a big fan of that spot though because you can only see the T's head, but he can see pretty much everything upper CT side.

Then, if you get into that tunnel, CTs are already on that area (as they get there quicker). Once you pick those 2 off then you come out of the tunnels to see that there is 4 CT camping spots. Once you get out of there you have to make it into site, which sadly by the time you do the CTs from A have already rotated and have numerous places to cover B site from. Once T's get B site it should be rather easy to keep it, but getting there is a win in itself.

I agree with Bunni that there should be a different "vein" to B, that or perhaps move the CT spawn back (and toward A alittle bit) so that CTs still take 13ish seconds to get to A, while taking about ~15 seconds to get to overpass.

Just my .02, hope we can get testing soon. I'd also like to see your new tunnel.

Thank you for the input.

I forgot to mention that I had actually added a few more spawns to the Ts to allow them a better jump on B, but about the same jump on A. Pictures:




But perhaps this isn't enough. I could move the T spawn more if it still proves unbalanced at B.

At this point, I think we have enough good ideas, but we really need to test it out first and see if some of them are necessary. Adretheon and I should have a map testing night and test out colmar and then my dust remake. That would be awesome.

max this is amazing. i'm going to download the map right now!

When I was flying around it earlier I had the idea of moving the spawn up the stairs. Instead of at the bottom, but that may give the T's a bit more jump than need be.