Thread: More people need to be up in arms here

Originally Posted by dex71

Point is, we really don't know what happened...for sure.

Were the cops being complete assholes? Maybe.

Was this guy nuts? Sounds like it....Article says he was often seen talking to himself.

Asshole officers meeting with crazy old guy....the potential for trouble is off the charts.

As for the non-witnesses, what if the whole time the guy was talking, he was making gestures toward the knives, or holding one? They don'y know, because they didn't see anything.

No matter how you slice the story, it's sad. Either some otherwise fine cops stupidly threw their life away, or a sick old man made a move he couldn't take back. And no one had anything to gain. One man is dead, and another may have been forced to pull the trigger....that can't be easy to live with either.

What we have to consider really is whats being told. If they are being honest about the audio and video then there isnt really much to discuss. The police were way out of bounds. There is nothing crazy about not wanting police officers that are insulting you from coming into your home whether it be willingly or by force.

I simply do not see why they would be lieing about the video and audio. It would not be to their advantage seeing as they are the ones pushing for a court appearance. I know its still speculation at this point but odds are the family is telling the truth.

Originally Posted by dex71

Point is, we really don't know what happened...for sure.

Were the cops being complete assholes? Maybe.

Was this guy nuts? Sounds like it....Article says he was often seen talking to himself.

Asshole officers meeting with crazy old guy....the potential for trouble is off the charts.

As for the non-witnesses, what if the whole time the guy was talking, he was making gestures toward the knives, or holding one? They don'y know, because they didn't see anything.

No matter how you slice the story, it's sad. Either some otherwise fine cops stupidly threw their life away, or a sick old man made a move he couldn't take back. And no one had anything to gain. One man is dead, and another may have been forced to pull the trigger....that can't be easy to live with either.

Crap.

That's just too much of an apologist position. With what I've read so far this isn't a "six of one, half dozen the other" situation that you shrug off because it could go either way.

Let's say I'm bat-shit crazy, and stare at any cop I see like I wish I had a hand grenade. Let's say that everyone knows how I am and how I feel about cops, and a year ago when I made a cop uncomfortable by staring at him with hatred and he asked me what my problem was I said "I wish I had a hand grenade right now."

All that as written - If I want to practice my knife-juggling act in my boxers every morning at 5am and the cops come knock on my door and say "let us in!" and I say "NO, I don't want you here, GTFO" and keep juggling and they bust down the door and I scream "I'm busy with my knife juggling practice! GTFO!", and I get (as you put it) "ventilated", then it's their fault. They precipitated it. I don't give a damn what they intended or if they had "cause" to enter - that's bad police work.

Yeah, the potential for trouble is off the charts. Being a good cop isn't just about dealing with trouble. It's about minimizing the potential for trouble.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by dex71

Wow.....The "what if" game seems to have a new name.

Let's say you're bat shit crazy (really not necessary, but what the Hell ). Let's also say that maybe the cops had an idea that the man may be a danger to himself or others (considering what happened, not exactly a stretch). If they leave, and he hurts himself, or worse yet, someone else, then what? I bet the same people who automatically default to the anti-cop side of EVERY issue would be the first ones in here wondering why they didn't hit him with a tranquilizer dart, and put him in a padded room.

Maybe the cops were REQUIRED to be there.....and from what they saw, maybe they were REQUIRED to make contact if not take the man into custody for his own good, and for the good of the people around him. Even if he was working on his chainsaw/butcher knife act for the Shrine Circus, he is REQUIRED to put them down and talk to the police. If the cops have no right to be there, or are otherwise conducting themselves in an illegal or unprofessional manner, there is more than one way to handle it. Door number one has a butcher knife and a couple of pistol rounds, and door number two has a lawyer who could make sure your golden years are spent turning down interview requests from Robin Leach. His choice.

But we don't know any of that.....really at all. Nobody SAW anything, and the ones who did are either dead or cops. Maybe the cops were way out of line, it's entirely possible if not probable. Even if they were, they still didn't make the decision to use deadly force...he did. Sure, I also expect the cops to diffuse situations rather than escalate them when possible, and if it is decided by the people who have ALL of the facts that these guys were in the wrong, I hope they get what they have coming to them. I highly doubt they will make any sort of Murder charges stand (since the man allegedly charged the cops with the knife), but most certainly removed from the force and some time at the Graybar Hotel (wouldn't that be an adventure for them).

It just seemed to me that many here were almost waiting for another juicy "shitty cop" story. Here we have a crime (no matter which way the chips fell) that NO ONE saw....zero non-cop EYEwitnesses. Just as we can pretty much throw out the testimony of the cops, I'm also inclined to give much less weight to the local Earwitnesses as the same shitty biases can easily be applied. So that leaves us with some videotape from the security camera, some audio from a LifeLock thinger, and the tape from the tazer....none of which have been seen by any of us. We won't know what happened until the courts are done, but that certainly didn't slow anyone down from picking a "side", and most definitely made a nifty story to sell some newspapers and convene the Court of Public Opinion.

The problem with both what ifs is they speculate to things and leave out what actually happened. This guy commited no crime. They were there for medical reasons for a guy with a heart condition. If he doesnt want to open the door he does not have to by any stretch of the law.

Even if you want to argue he does have to open the door by law why are weapons drawn for a medical emergency? Why are we taking the first step of tasering a guy with a KNOWN heart condition? They obviously had something in mind before they went to the door or they wouldnt have brought the shotgun with them.

Originally Posted by dex71

So you actually believe the cops showed up to the place with the intent of becoming a death squad. For what? What did they have to gain by intentionally risking everything near and dear to them?

The flip side for you....

Why would they grab their shotguns if they thought the guy didn't pose a threat (which he OBVIOUSLY did)? I don't ....not for one second...buy the crap that MULTIPLE people consciously made the decision to throw their lives away by committing cold-blooded murder with absolutely nothing to gain. I bet it went down a little closer to my example than your death squad scenario.

No i dont think they showed up with the intention. I believe they became one due to their own ego of we are the police so you must comply. Fairly certain we have seen plenty of examples around to prove that is in fact an issue within the police departments. Whether its been trained in or simply a learned issue i do not know.

I respond to your question of what did they have to gain with the question of what did they have to lose by taking the man at his word he was fine. All also add i doubt they were risking everything near and dear to them by the hand of a person with a KNOWN heart condition to which they were responding to a MEDICAL emergency. So as far as i can tell the most they had to risk was a piece of their own ego or pride. They took it to the next level.

My remark about the shot gun was meant as to why they entered with it to begin with. They all had side arms, tasers, pepper spray, and the ability to take a 68 year old down by hand. So i would agree they did not consciously decide to throw their life away. It was made subconsciously in anger due to a man not willing to obey an unlawful order. It was most likely never intended to go as far as it did but it did and we all know police have a history of covering each others back.