Thread: Religion and Spirituality

LOL, If the bible was so Easy to read and interpret, There wouldn't be differing opinions and Dissent WITHIN the Christian community itself.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Well the reality is that God didn't make it so that Jesus had to die. Man, tricked by Satan, made it that way when they exercised their free will and disobeyed God, eating the fruit as we have all heard the story. God issued a judgment on Adam and Eve for their behavior, a judgment that we are all under to this day.

God you know, could have just forgiven people. He created the whole damn universe so why can't he forgive without a sacrificial offering to himself, offered by himself.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Yes, God made the rules. Being perfect, he has to follow them too. The prophecies on who the messiah was going to be (there were over 100 of them, all written and predicted hundreds of years in advance and all fulfilled by Jesus) was God's way of providing proof to mankind that Jesus was the true messiah. Otherwise Satan could easily have once again fooled mankind with a false messiah and altered God's plans. The covenant with the strange rules was designed specifically to help people to realize that no one could gain entry to heaven by their own behavior. Even breaking one of the rules in Leviticus or the 10 Commandments meant that entry to heaven would be denied. Atonement for these sins at that time required a blood sacrifice or burnt offering to God. But it was pretty obvious to most Jews that this was an unsustainable way to get to heaven, as no one can be perfect. So Jesus had to die and rise from the grave first in order to keep with the covenant God had made but also to replace that covenant with a new one. The blood sacrifice of Jesus represents a single sacrifice designed to satisfy God's law and also to atone for all sins past, present and future for those who believe.

He didn't need to make a strange prophecy that he obligated him self to fulfill. He didn't need to create such a archaic system of laws and then get mad and demand a sacrifice of him self to appease the so called sins of man. He could have just forgiven them, or judge them individuality and not damn the from being perfect. Your god is making a stupid system that forcing is own hand for no reason at all. It seems the one thing the all power full can't do is forgive, unless he has his strange ritual sacrifice.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

The point is that since God gave man free will, God's plans can be altered by men and their disobedience to him. The way that God handled that problem was with what we have been discussing, ultimately sending Jesus.

Or he could just judge every man based on his deeds instead of expecting them to be perfect and follow an barbaric system of laws that only a tiny fraction of the human race has even access too. But then he kills him self so that we no longer have to follow the barbaric laws he invented? Why invite those laws in the first place, why need stupid animal sacrifices. I don't see what so hard about judging a man on his own merits. Oh that's right he is inherently evil or something, and that is unforgivable. Even though no one did anything to get this unforgivable evil that we all apparently have except some dude who ate an apple.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Because nothing imperfect can gain entry to heaven. Even one immoral act and that's it. The sinner is barred from heaven. Some people get caught up in the notion of original sin but that is really irrelevant, because we all sin ourselves anyway. So if we cannot gain entry to heaven because we all sin to some degree or other, when we accept Christ, God doesn't see us anymore. He sees Christ. He sees perfection, Christ is substituted in place of us in God's eyes. So God then does not issue the judgment he surely would have if he saw us and our deeds. The Bible says that the day Christ died, all of the punishment for man's sins past present and future were poured out onto him by God, so not only did Christ die, he also was already punished for all of our sins. So when we accept Christ as our substitute, God sees Christ and knows that our own punishment because of our sin was already bore by Christ.

Sorry, but I can not see how any rational person can honestly believe that God, a being so intelligent he the created everything universe, everything from the largest galaxies, to the smallest microbe, to the human mind, to the beauty of the cosmos can be so petty and spiteful to send somehow to eternal damnation because they are not perfect and the sins of generations past. And the only way out is to believe a story of a dead magic man, even though he will never show us any proof of this event or him self, other than an confusing book whose followers can't agree on more than three things together. It is just absurd.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Every man has the same opportunity as every other. The existence of God is obvious simply by observing the world around us, as I explained earlier. You are making a fundamental mistake in trying to think of God as you would think of another person. This is a being that can see all eternity, and completely understand every possible outcome, even given our own free will, right now. So sure we don't understand what God understands. How could we? So questioning God's motives is kind of silly in that context. A simple example is a parent and a child. A child sees a glowing stove. The glow of the stove is pretty to the child but the child is not old enough to understand that the stove is glowing because it is hot, and tries to touch it. The parent, loving the child and not wanting to see them hurt, says "Don't touch the stove". The child, having no concept of the hot stove and what it means, says "why does my parent tell me this? Why would they not want me to touch this pretty glowing light?" And so the child touches it anyway. Then it's too late. They find out the stove is hot, but they are permanently injured in doing so. The child's mistake was one of perspective. This is a simple example but an all-knowing, all-powerful God has a perspective that is far beyond our comprehension. So we will have to accept that as a part of our understanding of God.

You and I know that not everyone has the same opportunity. Many die before they hear the "word of god" and many die before they are old enough to understand it. The very least god can do is come to us and give us some pointers in the right direction. I'm not asking for "Believe in Jesus Christ" to be painted in gold letters across the sky" but some clearly divine pointers in the right direction would be nice. I mean God has no problem using divine intervention in ancient wars and genocide. But no, I guess asking even the slightest amount of proof is an arrogant request against the almighty and would destroy the free will. I guess I just have to believe in this odd collect of thousand year old books. I mean I hardly consider believe in this far fetched book or you will burn forever a free and fair choice.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

I'd rather have Chrstianity, because God has already revealed in scripture what moral behavior looks like. Marcus Aurelius' hypothetical "gods" have not revealed this, so then, how would I know what virtue, just and moral behavior is? I'd really just be hoping I was right in the way I was living. Nah. As a Christian I know I'm right, so I'm ok with that.

What has God reveal to me? Once again I just have to take the word of hypocrites who treat a collection of ancient books as the answer to everything ever. So you'd rather have a god who condones war after war and supports genocide and a barbaric system of laws. Just because he killed him self to save you for not fitting into his insane standards and for the sis of men long dead. Or so says a bunch of confusing books.

If Christianity is right, could you really sit in heaven knowing full well the billions are being tortured in hell for ever. An infinite punishment for a finite crime. I mean really, if Jesus was crucified a billion time over billion times over for each and every sinner, it wouldn't even come into a fraction of what ONE sinner goes through in hell. But according to you and your god these people deserve it for not being perfect and not acknowledging the death a magic man who died 2,000 years ago in a remote part of a long dead empire.
How could you live knowing that. I would feel guilty, I think that's what started my loss of faith. Maybe I never had it, just a kid saying what his parents told him too, but either way I still wouldn't want to live in a world where dozens of my friends, colleges, teachers, and billions of average joes and in another suffering unimaginable horrors. And I don't wan to worship the being that did that. I just don't see why you would even like someone like that. But you do, because he killed his son or himself, but is that really equal to the suffering of billions for ever?

Now back to Marcus Aurelius for a second, I admit I don't know what is objectively good if there even is. But I had this thought inspired by watching some old Carl Sagan stuff a few days ago. As far as we can tell we are alone on this tiny blue speck of dust in an infinite universe. The least thing we can do is take care of each other, we are all we have after all. We can only do this on step at a time I guess, open the door for the old lady, donate a few cans to the shelter, sit next to the kid who eat alone. Of course we still will have troubles with the larger moral dilemmas in both our lives and in society. But religion has time and time again failed us with that, dividing men, creating superstitious, holding knowledge back. Believe what you want to believe, but keep it to your self and keep it out of the public, politics and the government.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding angry but this is the same story I've heard again and again. A mix of cirular agrugemtns, guilt tripping, fear mongering, disguiesed as faith and understanding. I guess that's what happen when you are trying to mix a set of doctrines that can not be mixed in any rational way, but that what happens when you mix a couple of thousand year old books and expect it to hold water in the 21st century

Control.

Originally Posted by PvtPrivate

God you know, could have just forgiven people. He created the whole damn universe so why can't he forgive without a sacrificial offering to himself, offered by himself.


He didn't need to make a strange prophecy that he obligated him self to fulfill. He didn't need to create such a archaic system of laws and then get mad and demand a sacrifice of him self to appease the so called sins of man. He could have just forgiven them, or judge them individuality and not damn the from being perfect. Your god is making a stupid system that forcing is own hand for no reason at all. It seems the one thing the all power full can't do is forgive, unless he has his strange ritual sacrifice.


Or he could just judge every man based on his deeds instead of expecting them to be perfect and follow an barbaric system of laws that only a tiny fraction of the human race has even access too. But then he kills him self so that we no longer have to follow the barbaric laws he invented? Why invite those laws in the first place, why need stupid animal sacrifices. I don't see what so hard about judging a man on his own merits. Oh that's right he is inherently evil or something, and that is unforgivable. Even though no one did anything to get this unforgivable evil that we all apparently have except some dude who ate an apple.




Sorry, but I can not see how any rational person can honestly believe that God, a being so intelligent he the created everything universe, everything from the largest galaxies, to the smallest microbe, to the human mind, to the beauty of the cosmos can be so petty and spiteful to send somehow to eternal damnation because they are not perfect and the sins of generations past. And the only way out is to believe a story of a dead magic man, even though he will never show us any proof of this event or him self, other than an confusing book whose followers can't agree on more than three things together. It is just absurd.


You and I know that not everyone has the same opportunity. Many die before they hear the "word of god" and many die before they are old enough to understand it. The very least god can do is come to us and give us some pointers in the right direction. I'm not asking for "Believe in Jesus Christ" to be painted in gold letters across the sky" but some clearly divine pointers in the right direction would be nice. I mean God has no problem using divine intervention in ancient wars and genocide. But no, I guess asking even the slightest amount of proof is an arrogant request against the almighty and would destroy the free will. I guess I just have to believe in this odd collect of thousand year old books. I mean I hardly consider believe in this far fetched book or you will burn forever a free and fair choice.



What has God reveal to me? Once again I just have to take the word of hypocrites who treat a collection of ancient books as the answer to everything ever. So you'd rather have a god who condones war after war and supports genocide and a barbaric system of laws. Just because he killed him self to save you for not fitting into his insane standards and for the sis of men long dead. Or so says a bunch of confusing books.

If Christianity is right, could you really sit in heaven knowing full well the billions are being tortured in hell for ever. An infinite punishment for a finite crime. I mean really, if Jesus was crucified a billion time over billion times over for each and every sinner, it wouldn't even come into a fraction of what ONE sinner goes through in hell. But according to you and your god these people deserve it for not being perfect and not acknowledging the death a magic man who died 2,000 years ago in a remote part of a long dead empire.
How could you live knowing that. I would feel guilty, I think that's what started my loss of faith. Maybe I never had it, just a kid saying what his parents told him too, but either way I still wouldn't want to live in a world where dozens of my friends, colleges, teachers, and billions of average joes and in another suffering unimaginable horrors. And I don't wan to worship the being that did that. I just don't see why you would even like someone like that. But you do, because he killed his son or himself, but is that really equal to the suffering of billions for ever?

Now back to Marcus Aurelius for a second, I admit I don't know what is objectively good if there even is. But I had this thought inspired by watching some old Carl Sagan stuff a few days ago. As far as we can tell we are alone on this tiny blue speck of dust in an infinite universe. The least thing we can do is take care of each other, we are all we have after all. We can only do this on step at a time I guess, open the door for the old lady, donate a few cans to the shelter, sit next to the kid who eat alone. Of course we still will have troubles with the larger moral dilemmas in both our lives and in society. But religion has time and time again failed us with that, dividing men, creating superstitious, holding knowledge back. Believe what you want to believe, but keep it to your self and keep it out of the public, politics and the government.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding angry but this is the same story I've heard again and again. A mix of cirular agrugemtns, guilt tripping, fear mongering, disguiesed as faith and understanding. I guess that's what happen when you are trying to mix a set of doctrines that can not be mixed in any rational way, but that what happens when you mix a couple of thousand year old books and expect it to hold water in the 21st century

I understand. But I don't think you understand what perfect and just means. It certainly explains why you don't understand why just anyone can't get into heaven, and why you don't understand how God instructed us through all the "archaic system of laws", etc... You've got to look for yourself, really, really look.

"Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:5-13)

This holds perfect water for me, is all I'm saying.