Business Innovation vs Social Convention

**dex71** · 10-03-13, 05:19 PM

The success of it would probably depend on location as well.

Here in the city (burbs), we tip. In Western Wisconsin (which is pretty rural), they tip.....but not nearly as much. The tipless plan may work better there than it would here.

As for the power of it, I see what you are getting at, but I don't think of it in that way. As a customer, I'm pretty easy. I don't pick apart the menu and add substitutions on top of a million questions all while holding the mayo. To me, it is part reward for a good job, part foundation laying (for great service next time I walk in), and as horrible and condescending as it sounds, part charity. It makes me feel good (as selfish as the gift of giving can be) to tip well.

**DJ Ms. White** · 10-04-13, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by CivilWars

I did start reading it, but am now on a conference call, so will finish later. I am not arguing one way or the other which model is better, but acting like waitstaff only make $2-3/hour TOTAL is pants on head retarded.

Everyone I know who has waited tables has stopped for the most part since people are either not tipping or tipping like 5%.

**Gumby** · 10-04-13, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Tipless restaurants?

Standard here in Germany. Not really surprising considering they get a normal wage.

Why do waiters and waitresses get paid less than minimum wage?

Not exactly true. Here in Germany tips are included in the price of the meal and it is customary to still give them a small amount for good service. German waitstaffs are generally terrible compared to other countries I have been to. Good service is not usually a part of the restaurant experience here. Americans here still usually tip well here. After I have been to a place enough for them to know me and to know that I might tip well, the service improves dramatically. Still, the best service in Germany is at a restaurant I know in Nuremberg that has a fully automated waitstaff.

Also Germany has no minimum wage. It is simply illegal to pay any employee too little to live on.

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**Alundil** · 10-04-13, 09:03 AM

Waited tables for a year-ish. Bartender for about a year and a half. Tips were not pooled per say, but it was recommended that you'd cut the bus-staff otherwise you'd (potentially) be waiting longer for tables to clean and you'd cut the bar-staff in if you'd sold alcohol. Other that than... As a bartender, it was customary to pool among the other bartenders if there were more than one on at a time. Otherwise it was all for the one running the bar (and clearing it and serving/clearing tables in bar area).

I’m proposing that tipping allows us to assign women a role where any sexuality they display can be attributed not to their desires but instead to their greed for money. In doing so, we both dehumanize and desexualize women, in large numbers. We do this to shield ourselves from the cultural memory of a time not too long ago, when virile women called the shots and nobody was too concerned if your wife was getting around.

Not being familiar with the research or concepts quoted I think that this is, currently, the more difficult bit to 'square.' Put simply, this fails to hold the same weight for me given the numbers of men in jobs (for decades) who also work off of tips. I guess more reading necessary on my part though to be able to form a fully fleshed out (no pun intended) opinion.

Otherwise a very interesting article. From the perspective of a customer (who's also been in that very same role and seen some of the 'shenangians' that wait staff pull) I find the tip mechanism a fairly satisfactory mechanism (chiefly because there is no other method currently in use). vOv

**iravedic** · 10-04-13, 01:04 PM

I have worked in all phases of the restaurant industry - and come from a restaurant family. The way I was taught by my grandfather was the following: in the restaurant there 3 basic things being provided, food, the location, and service. The item's that end up on the check are for the food and location, the service component gets covered by the tip. In a lot of ways it's no different than anyone working sales on a commission. The wait staff is there to be the 'face' of the restaurant in it's interaction with the customer and they have the ability to positively effect the customers order, overall impression, and likelihood of becoming a repeat customer. The restaurant has to provide the highest quality product for them to sell in a location that is comfortable and enjoyable.

Right or wrong that's the way he approached it, and it worked very, very well for a very long time.

As to the gender implications - not so sure. The funny thing, or actually not so funny, at the truly top end restaurants where you can make a really good living as a full-time waiter, the wait staffs are perdominantly male. Just like the chefs (if you have a problem with this you can thank the europeans- the french in particular). It is changing, albeit slowly.

**Alundil** · 10-04-13, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by iravedic

I have worked in all phases of the restaurant industry - and come from a restaurant family. The way I was taught by my grandfather was the following: in the restaurant there 3 basic things being provided, food, the location, and service. The item's that end up on the check are for the food and location, the service component gets covered by the tip. In a lot of ways it's no different than anyone working sales on a commission. The wait staff is there to be the 'face' of the restaurant in it's interaction with the customer and they have the ability to positively effect the customers order, overall impression, and likelihood of becoming a repeat customer. The restaurant has to provide the highest quality product for them to sell in a location that is comfortable and enjoyable.

Right or wrong that's the way he approached it, and it worked very, very well for a very long time.

As to the gender implications - not so sure. The funny thing, or actually not so funny, at the truly top end restaurants where you can make a really good living as a full-time waiter, the wait staffs are perdominantly male. Just like the chefs (if you have a problem with this you can thank the europeans- the french in particular). It is changing, albeit slowly.

Excellent points Ira and laid fairly closely to my 'misgivings' about the gender-bent of the article.

**triggerhappy2005** · 10-05-13, 01:39 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-map.html?_r=0

A lot of uninsured waiting jobs out there. Not so sure it's the great gig some here claim it is.

**Red_Lizard2** · 10-05-13, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-map.html?_r=0

A lot of uninsured waiting jobs out there. Not so sure it's the great gig some here claim it is.

It likely isn't great at all. But if your option are: Shit job, shit job, shit job with decent tips. The third sounds better. Hell I'd take waiting over when I worked in fast food, at least the people treating you like shit might leave a couple bucks, instead of just getting treated like shit.

**dex71** · 10-05-13, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-map.html?_r=0

A lot of uninsured waiting jobs out there. Not so sure it's the great gig some here claim it is.

Maybe that is a good thing. Should serving food be a career for most? Or should there be some motivation to pull yourself up a bit?

**triggerhappy2005** · 10-05-13, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by dex71

Maybe that is a good thing. Should serving food be a career for most? Or should there be some motivation to pull yourself up a bit?

Funny thing is, most of these types of jobs are becoming careers. When I was young 80's and 90's, it seemed the adults working at McD's were the managers. Now it looks like the whole staff.