Texas Board of Education and the Re-writing of American History

[Potemkine]

When I have kids they're going straight into the IB program to get an education they can take anywhere.

Thats actually I REALLY good idea. The IB program is top notch.

[SmokenSherriff_]

Here we go...

First of all your interpretation of my statement about the bible being the basis for ideas, values, beliefs is false. It is the character of God and his attributes that form the basis and ideas for people to live in harmony and flourish, or as I called it "nation building". Where are these ideas and laws found collectively ? The Bible. You wanted to toss out all the governments that existed prior to the Holy Bible and while they do date the Bible, they do not date God. Bible is nothing, for it is just a compilation of Gods teachings and men's testimonies of his existence.

Let me know where the chapter in the bible is that says how to build a country. Law is not founded on the teachings of the bible in anyway shape or form. If that statement is true then the Chinese would not of had lawful societies as early as 5,000 BC and they were definitely there by 2,100 BC, BC means before Christ BTW. Also that would be 600+ years before any kind of "bible" was made (cool fact is Job is the oldest book in the bible, moses wrote genesis right around 1,500-1,400 or so) The law in the bible, especially the old testament is no where near what any of our laws are based off of, unless your saying bible says killing is bad, and so do we hence a connection. Very silly idea.

First of all leave out the personal commentary, "Very silly idea", only weak people cant refrain from adding some level of emotion to cloud and slant peoples opinion for their viewpoint. No place for two people attempting to support what they believe. Not a popularity contest.

What allows people to live together? What keeps total anarchy and chaos from leading to our ruin as a society of people? Is it not law? I think you would agree it is law. Ok, so if it is law then where does law come from? Law is based on the character of God. Right and wrong is decided by this and is true today as it was thousands of years ago. The ten commandments are necessary to any group of people to live together. Those came from God.

You make an assumption here and state it as though its fact:"the old testament (law) is no where near what any of our laws are based off ".
The old testament is filled with the idea of "loving your neighbor as yourself". This is the central idea to the flourishing of our country. If all members of this nation are believers in God, as many of them were, then you will practice the stated main theme throughout the old and new testaments. "Treating others as you want to be treated". This nations success was based on the freedom that comes from its people sharing that belief. For with that belief there is not a need for many laws. People govern themselves. A unique idea never really seen before in the founding of a nation. To this point a rule of the people by the people could never have worked? Why? Is it because no government to this point had been set up like this? Freedom and liberties given to the people because they trusted in their ability to self govern themselves. Or shall we say, "love their neighbor as thyself"? Was there always people trying to hold on to power whether it was kings, ruling families, religions? Always. Did the people in those countries share a uniformly belief in God and his laws? often no. Would they follow them if they did believe? Sometimes but was difficult amongst the persecution. Were they suppressed by political and religious (man based lies) forces? Yes. So did many not have the ability to worship freely or ever start a county on these principals? Correct. United States was founded and succeeded because they trusted in the teachings of God.

"Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them, or a power without them; either by the word of God, or by the strong arm of man."
- Robert Charles Winthrop, U.S. Speaker of the House, 1849.

Liberty, freedoms, and limited external laws only come from people that as a whole have internal laws. This is the principle of "self government" and comes from the teachings of God, which are solely based on his character. You know the idea of treating others the way you would treat yourself. A simple sounding idea but dynamic when applied in a consistent manner to a group of people.

"Without the Bible, we increase penal laws."
- James McHenry, Signer of the U.S. Constitution.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- President John Adams.

Without the teachings of God based on his character found in the Bible, our country could not of existed on the foundation and framework it was built. Furthermore to deny the teaching of this truth to America's children under the blanket cry of "indoctrination" is to say that we dont like what this country was based on or where they got their ideas so let us rewrite the history books under the shadow of political correctness. You all either are or just supporting Revisionist History perspectives. You believe that all things are a product of government rather then a product of God. Secular Humanists, gotta love em.

"The sacred rights of mankind are...written...by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."
- Alexander Hamilton.

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the Gift of God?"
- President Thomas Jefferson.

More examples of their belief in God and his teachings being the only foundation that the way our nation was founded could work and vice versa. It is a road map to nation building but cant be used by non believers. It just wont work.

"The founding fathers had to refer to the Creator in order to make their revolutionary experiment make sense."
- President Dwight Eisenhower.

He sees it. Why not teach the truth?

"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the Hand of God."
- President John F. Kennedy.

He gets it too...

We arrive here and I know we wont get anywhere because many of you have a different belief in the origin of life. Thus a disbelief in God. We will not be able to agree based on the following:

Let me ask you where does morality come from? You will say that man is just inherently good. I will say that we are inherently evil with sin natures. You will say that man just created its own morality and it just happened to work out. I will say morality comes form God, for he alone establishes what is right and wrong and gave us a conscience. So our origin of morality will differ...

Next, let me ask can you legislate morality? Hopefully you realize you cannot. No one can make a law like "do not murder" and its followed consistently and regularly. However, I say and what the founding fathers believed is that the best way to start a country is to find a place like the Puritans and Quakers sought to start a country on the belief in GOD!!! One based on internal law, the best way to keep people following laws are to have people that are governed by internal law. The laws of God, a relationship with the creator, a desire to "TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED".
For in this we can limit government, give more freedoms and liberties. We can have rule of the people, by the people, and for the people. We don't need the as Winthrop elegantly stated in the quote above, "strong arm of man". All great nations have risen and fallen or they exist on the complete denial of personal liberty and rule by the "strong arm of man". History proves this.

Look, I am know bible thumper I try to worry about my choices and rule me. That is tough enough, but as someone who has studied this stuff deeply I wont let you all throw your opinions in here as fact and overstate you worldview as fact. There is plenty of evidence to support the sole reason for the success of the is nation is based on its foundation, a foundation that is solely based on GOD. That fact is all they are trying to have put back in the history books and it should. I does not mean God is real or whether there is a heaven or hell. What it means is you happen to live in a country based on God, founded by Christian people, and just cause you don't like it doesn't give you the right to rewrite it or censor it. You should appreciate it!! Hell, you should want to understand what inspired these people and gave them such a vision and understanding of what it would take to create a real democracy. A place that actually gives people the freedoms you and I take for granted. It wasn't anything based on do what you feel or survival of the fittest, or any other darwinist, secluar humanist, bs. It was a respect for life and others, in a way equal to the love you have of yourself. That gives people security and that gives people freedom.

"In order that you may go through life with the usefulness to your fellow creatures...you should adopt certain rules for the government of your own conduct...It is in the Bible you must learn them."
- John Quincy Adams.

I can pull up thousands of quotes from the founders to the walls of the capital or any capital in this country that show these men's belief in God and the inspiration from this belief in God overall role in every part of this countries founding. Yes even the bill of rights.

Pint ill rip apart the rest of your post later, gotta run.

Smoke

[Zer0-]

Here we go...

First of all your interpretation of my statement about the bible being the basis for ideas, values, beliefs is false. It is the character of God and his attributes that form the basis and ideas for people to live in harmony and flourish, or as I called it "nation building". Where are these ideas and laws found collectively ? The Bible. You wanted to toss out all the governments that existed prior to the Holy Bible and while they do date the Bible, they do not date God. Bible is nothing, for it is just a compilation of Gods teachings and men's testimonies of his existence.

Let me know where the chapter in the bible is that says how to build a country. Law is not founded on the teachings of the bible in anyway shape or form. If that statement is true then the Chinese would not of had lawful societies as early as 5,000 BC and they were definitely there by 2,100 BC, BC means before Christ BTW. Also that would be 600+ years before any kind of "bible" was made (cool fact is Job is the oldest book in the bible, moses wrote genesis right around 1,500-1,400 or so) The law in the bible, especially the old testament is no where near what any of our laws are based off of, unless your saying bible says killing is bad, and so do we hence a connection. Very silly idea.

First of all leave out the personal commentary, "Very silly idea", only weak people cant refrain from adding some level of emotion to cloud and slant peoples opinion for their viewpoint. No place for two people attempting to support what they believe. Not a popularity contest.

What allows people to live together? What keeps total anarchy and chaos from leading to our ruin as a society of people? Is it not law? I think you would agree it is law. Ok, so if it is law then where does law come from? Law is based on the character of God. Right and wrong is decided by this and is true today as it was thousands of years ago. The ten commandments are necessary to any group of people to live together. Those came from God.

You make an assumption here and state it as though its fact:"the old testament (law) is no where near what any of our laws are based off ".
The old testament is filled with the idea of "loving your neighbor as yourself". This is the central idea to the flourishing of our country. If all members of this nation are believers in God, as many of them were, then you will practice the stated main theme throughout the old and new testaments. "Treating others as you want to be treated". This nations success was based on the freedom that comes from its people sharing that belief. For with that belief there is not a need for many laws. People govern themselves. A unique idea never really seen before in the founding of a nation. To this point a rule of the people by the people could never have worked? Why? Is it because no government to this point had been set up like this? Freedom and liberties given to the people because they trusted in their ability to self govern themselves. Or shall we say, "love their neighbor as thyself"? Was there always people trying to hold on to power whether it was kings, ruling families, religions? Always. Did the people in those countries share a uniformly belief in God and his laws? often no. Would they follow them if they did believe? Sometimes but was difficult amongst the persecution. Were they suppressed by political and religious (man based lies) forces? Yes. So did many not have the ability to worship freely or ever start a county on these principals? Correct. United States was founded and succeeded because they trusted in the teachings of God.

"Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them, or a power without them; either by the word of God, or by the strong arm of man."
- Robert Charles Winthrop, U.S. Speaker of the House, 1849.

Liberty, freedoms, and limited external laws only come from people that as a whole have internal laws. This is the principle of "self government" and comes from the teachings of God, which are solely based on his character. You know the idea of treating others the way you would treat yourself. A simple sounding idea but dynamic when applied in a consistent manner to a group of people.

"Without the Bible, we increase penal laws."
- James McHenry, Signer of the U.S. Constitution.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- President John Adams.

Without the teachings of God based on his character found in the Bible, our country could not of existed on the foundation and framework it was built. Furthermore to deny the teaching of this truth to America's children under the blanket cry of "indoctrination" is to say that we dont like what this country was based on or where they got their ideas so let us rewrite the history books under the shadow of political correctness. You all either are or just supporting Revisionist History perspectives. You believe that all things are a product of government rather then a product of God. Secular Humanists, gotta love em.

"The sacred rights of mankind are...written...by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."
- Alexander Hamilton.

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the Gift of God?"
- President Thomas Jefferson.

More examples of their belief in God and his teachings being the only foundation that the way our nation was founded could work and vice versa. It is a road map to nation building but cant be used by non believers. It just wont work.

"The founding fathers had to refer to the Creator in order to make their revolutionary experiment make sense."
- President Dwight Eisenhower.

He sees it. Why not teach the truth?

"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the Hand of God."
- President John F. Kennedy.

He gets it too...

We arrive here and I know we wont get anywhere because many of you have a different belief in the origin of life. Thus a disbelief in God. We will not be able to agree based on the following:

Let me ask you where does morality come from? You will say that man is just inherently good. I will say that we are inherently evil with sin natures. You will say that man just created its own morality and it just happened to work out. I will say morality comes form God, for he alone establishes what is right and wrong and gave us a conscience. So our origin of morality will differ...

Next, let me ask can you legislate morality? Hopefully you realize you cannot. No one can make a law like "do not murder" and its followed consistently and regularly. However, I say and what the founding fathers believed is that the best way to start a country is to find a place like the Puritans and Quakers sought to start a country on the belief in GOD!!! One based on internal law, the best way to keep people following laws are to have people that are governed by internal law. The laws of God, a relationship with the creator, a desire to "TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED".
For in this we can limit government, give more freedoms and liberties. We can have rule of the people, by the people, and for the people. We don't need the as Winthrop elegantly stated in the quote above, "strong arm of man". All great nations have risen and fallen or they exist on the complete denial of personal liberty and rule by the "strong arm of man". History proves this.

Look, I am know bible thumper I try to worry about my choices and rule me. That is tough enough, but as someone who has studied this stuff deeply I wont let you all throw your opinions in here as fact and overstate you worldview as fact. There is plenty of evidence to support the sole reason for the success of the is nation is based on its foundation, a foundation that is solely based on GOD. That fact is all they are trying to have put back in the history books and it should. I does not mean God is real or whether there is a heaven or hell. What it means is you happen to live in a country based on God, founded by Christian people, and just cause you don't like it doesn't give you the right to rewrite it or censor it. You should appreciate it!! Hell, you should want to understand what inspired these people and gave them such a vision and understanding of what it would take to create a real democracy. A place that actually gives people the freedoms you and I take for granted. It wasn't anything based on do what you feel or survival of the fittest, or any other darwinist, secluar humanist, bs. It was a respect for life and others, in a way equal to the love you have of yourself. That gives people security and that gives people freedom.

"In order that you may go through life with the usefulness to your fellow creatures...you should adopt certain rules for the government of your own conduct...It is in the Bible you must learn them."
- John Quincy Adams.

I can pull up thousands of quotes from the founders to the walls of the capital or any capital in this country that show these men's belief in God and the inspiration from this belief in God overall role in every part of this countries founding. Yes even the bill of rights.

Pint ill rip apart the rest of your post later, gotta run.

Smoke

Good job smoke . I was too lazy to find all this shit out and post thanks for doing so. EVERYONE needs to read this! I did not know a lot of this stuff before.

[Tuck]

When I have kids they're going straight into the IB program to get an education they can take anywhere.

Thats actually I REALLY good idea. The IB program is top notch.

yarp

[CivilWars]

wall of text hits civilwars for 12,384 damage. civilwars isno more.

[Potemkine]

wall of text hits civilwars for 12,384 damage. civilwars isno more.

Just wait until I'm done Alas, I cannot promise graphics this time though :3

[Tuck]

/////

[flame]

I think a lot of people greatly confuse belief in God and religion. Religion is full of man's failures. Religion is what the founders were trying to escape. Belief in God in each persons own way.

[Potemkine]

OK, time to drop some knowledge bombs. I have a feeling this is going to be a long post, a la, my massive post of science. Grab some popcorn and settle in, I’ll still be here.

To say that The United States of America was founded upon Christian ideals is without merit. The initial inspiration for The United States of America can be found in Ancient Greece, specifically, Athens, 510 B.C.E. – 322 B.C.E. and the Roman Republic, 508 B.C.E. – 27 B.C.E. Here, we find not one, but two different groups and civilizations that were ruled by a form of government that mimics ours: democracy and republic. Athens is largely credited with being the first nation state to utilize democratic ideals, that is to say, a group of elected officials ran the government. Similarly, the Roman Republic elected its senators by the voting population and they had a similar role in directing and dictating what occurred. Of course, the rise of Caesar heralded and age of political power wrestling between concentrated power and the democracy that the Senate wanted. A very similar fight still rages between the Presidency and Congress. I am of course paraphrasing and simplifying hundreds of years of ancient (albeit still important) history, in an effort to help explain some of the origins in our form of government and how it was founded. We can see here that the idea self government and methodology of government that was to be employed existed WELL before the supposed birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

The idea of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness comes from a DIRECT allusion to the Social Contract theory as proposed by John Locke, better known as Two Treatises of Government (1689). In his legendary treatises, Locke argued that people had a fundamental right to life, liberty and property. Here, Jefferson altered this famous saying to read “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” so as not to offend or upset his slave owning peers in the Southern Colonies when drafting the Declaration of Independence. The legendary work, Two Treatises of Government also advocated a separation of governmental powers. It is not possible to say that our government would have separated the powers of government if it was not for this treatise as few, if any were advocating such a concept. In addition, John Locke advocated that man was “tabula rasa”, a blank slate, when born, a contrast to Thomas Hobbes and his notion of man and life being nasty, short and brutish.

Hobbes dictated that man needed be directly controlled by a strong ruler due to the evil nature of man, an allusion to original sin. You will notice though however, that the general mindset of our country is that of Locke, in that when born, you are a blank slate and that it is society and your experiences shape you, an idea of self determination. Here some might argue that the Bible says that “God” gave us self determination, but how can that be when we are all born with original sin, and God already knows whether or not we will go to heaven. By definition, that is not self determination.
Locke was in no way, shape or form kind to religion. In his first treatise on government, Locke extensively attacked and systematically destroyed the argument for divine right of kings, or the claim of direct descendance from the Biblical Adam. In a variety of ways he showed how power did not come from “God” but from consent of the people, again, hardly a Religious notion.

Locke’s influence on our government can be seen in Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and most importantly, Thomas Jefferson, who wrote: “Bacon, Locke and Newton ... I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical and Moral sciences”. It is plausible to say that Locke had the single biggest hand in influencing how our government was modeled.

Many of the founders were not exactly Christians either. Both Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, arguably two of the biggest names, were out right Deists and have been quoted innumerable times with anti-religious sentiments:

“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity.” – Benjamin Franklin

“Lighthouses have more use than religion” – Benjamin Franklin

“The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason” – Benjamin Franklin

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” – James Madison

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." – Thomas Jefferson

“Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.” – Thomas Jefferson

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.” – Thomas Jefferson
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.” – Thomas Jefferson

“Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law.” – Thomas Paine
“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.” – Thomas Paine

Do I really need to get into the whole rational of Thomas Paine’s pamphlet: Common Sense?

However you cannot deny that this country America's success or failure was because of a belief in the Lord.

Really? REALLY? What possible evidence do you have of this outrageous claim? I am willing to bet, not much and ANY connection that you find will be tenuous at best. How has America succeeded without “God”? Let’s see here, creating a government, fighting and winning several wars, an exploding economy during the Industrial Revolution, our lead in the sciences, economic dominance, maintain a government that changes heads of state often, ad infinitum. NONE of what I have mentioned has a connection to “belief in the Lord”

Failures from belief in the Lord? OK, I’ll through you a bone and give you the “civilizing mission” to the “heathen countries of” Haiti, China, Philippines, Nicaragua, Panama, Hawaii, Guam, Dominican Republic…the list goes on (see American Imperialism).
America founded upon Christian ideals? Yeah, I don’t think so.

[flame]

Most of the arguments you present are against religion, namely forced state religion. Belief in God and respecting his authority is totally different.
To say their beliefs did not play a role is hard to believe. The biggest problem was organized religion had a bunch of man made garbage force fed in with it. They were against organized religion, and they believed in a supreme being. In which they believed authority to govern came from.

I dont really care what religion(or set of rules) you decide to follow. You will be a better person for it. Will it 'get you to heaven?' No

The point is these people had a strong moral fiber because of their "beliefs" and they used history as a guide to form a nation that was fair. Unlike the monarchy in Europe. They believed that God did not make kings kings, that we are created equal. There is a lot to it. To say a christian nation may not be the entire truth, but we were created a godly nation.