Thread: Mother asked to clean own room 2 days after caesarian....

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

My main point is that Rock seems to think that it's some natural law that a service provider must clean up after you, and I disagree. Even if they were a business, what's to stop them from doing exactly this? No, they probably wouldn't stay in business that long, but they could certainly do it.

You're right, they probably wouldn't. And I do not think that there is any "natural law" causing a service provider to clean up after patrons, patients, customers or anything else. I simply think that the service provider (in this case, a health care facility) by necessity has a house keeping (janitorial) service whose function it is to clean the facility. If the facility in question does not have such a service, then I think that they have tried to reduce expenditures too much and are now potentially risking their patients' health.

Note: if this had been a natural birth scenario, I might not be as inclined to the reaction I am having, as natural birth is a pretty quick recovery and the mother would be, safely, able strip the bedding (I still think it would be a shitty thing to do).

Originally Posted by dex71

And that is part of the point. Look at how the "service" has already degraded. If they were competing with a provider down the street,you can bet they BOTH would have janitorial services. Competition not only brings lower prices,but better services as well.

I agree fully. Losing the automatic selection is one of the downfalls to any non-capitalist system.

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

You don't get it. In the US, health care is considered a business where profit comes first. In Europe (western Europe for the anal types here), it's considered a necessary human need where the welfare of the patient exceeds the need for the few to make big money. We can argue whether it was right or wrong for this one woman to have to put her sheets in a bag but that doesn't detract from Alundil's attempt at making universal health care a bad thing. It isn't.

You would see this if you lived in Europe. Those of us that experienced both sides, know this. Post all the one-off, wacky stories you want but it won't change the truth. Europeans as a whole not only live longer but they also lead a better quality life on average compared to the average American.

Great, but I wasn't arguing healthcare, I was arguing about the OP and why the woman shouldn't HAVE to pick up her own sheets.

Originally Posted by dex71

And that is part of the point. Look at how the "service" has already degraded. If they were competing with a provider down the street,you can bet they BOTH would have janitorial services. Competition not only brings lower prices,but better services as well.

And Jebus Al.........Ease up on the anti-Uni Health Care tirades . Just drink your cool-aid...and the collective will take care of you. : D

Capitalism gives us better services like "20% of adults without health insurance, 9% of children without health insurance" compared to "some lady or more accurately the person who was going to drive her home was asked to put her sheets in a laundry bag." It goes back to my earlier post on "If THIS is the severity of of complaint coming out of a country with universal health care that gets international press then how is it a knock against universal health care instead of a resounding affirmative". Look at complaints against health care in the USA vs. complaints like the one in this article and really evaluate what situation you'd rather be in. I realize that most of us here have the "neato" health care, because we are haves and not have-nots, but that should be irrelevant to the discussion since we're discussing what would be better for all citizens of the nation. Unless, of course, people want to change their argument to "I got mine so f the rest of yall" in which case we can just cut off debate right here.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/hinsure.htm

Originally Posted by Toad

It goes back to my earlier post on "If THIS is the severity of of complaint coming out of a country with universal health care that gets international press then how is it a knock against universal health care instead of a resounding affirmative". Look at complaints against health care in the USA vs. complaints like the one in this article and really evaluate what situation you'd rather be in.

Fucking forum ate my first response

Toad - if you are, again erroneously comparing my relation of this story to some devious plot to back hand universal healthcare, single payer, obamacare or fuck all else you might want to label it, give up now - close your TPG account and move on to something with less letters. I've stated several times in this thread that I am not (and did not) mention this article in reference to a nationalized healthcare argument. I could care less that this took place in Sweden. It could have taken place in Podunk, IA for all I care. I posted the article as I thought it was a shitty thing to ask a recovering mother to do. Regardless of where it was, or who the hell paid for it. For God's sake (err I mean Science and Rainbowbrite) READ what I wrote instead of assuming that simply because I am conservative in most things and that Sweden's healthcare is "government run" that I must be posting articles against UHC by default.

Seriously? Are you going to imply that this is the most serious medical complaint that has arisen in countries with UHC? Are you going to imply that the USA's privatized healthcare (PHC) is the only healthcare with "serious" complaints and that simply by dint of being "gubment run" that UHC are fantastic? Really? Excuse me while I LOL in your general direction. My God man (oops I did it again) are you that in bed with the delusion that "I'm right and you're wrong" that you cant' see the very easily seen reality that medical issues (and mistakes and gross malpractice and cost overruns and __________ and ____________ and____________ (yeah those too) and _________ for good measure) exist in both systems regardless of where the $$, euros, kronor, francs, marks, yuan, etc come from?

I'll repeat, for probably the third time (third time's the charm I hope), that my posting this article and subsequent discussion thereof has nothing to do with UHC vs. PHC (unless that is you want it to - but I can't imagine you want to start that debate with "^^ is the most serious complaint you have against UHC" lawl).

I'd rather not have to go hunting for tragic incidents of medical errors around the world though.

Originally Posted by Toad

since we're discussing what would be better for all citizens of the nation.

We weren't, but thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by Toad

Unless, of course, people want to change their argument to "I got mine so f the rest of yall"

Sigh - riiiiiiiight because people who disagree with government run healthcare are, by default, evil and cruel and lacking in any sense of human compassion. I can't decide whether that would be best classified as this, or perhaps blatant silliness and a some whole-hearted fearmongering and class warfare....yeah man woohoo. Congrats.

You want to do a UHC vs PHC thread - good on you and go for it. This ain't it pal.

As for the link you provided from the CDC.....Those percentages you listed do not paint the whole picture.
From 2009 data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/ea...nsur201006.htm

That shows 80.2% of adults are covered in one form or another (private/public)
It also shows that 93.4% of children are covered in one form or another.

But numbers can be spun in many different ways. For instance, the CDC numbers (from IHS) consider parties covered under IHS to be uninsured. According to IHS' website, they cover approximately 1.9 million people. That's a fairly large number taken out of the insured group and counted as uninsured, even though they have insurance coverage provided by the federal government.

Originally Posted by Toad

"some lady or more accurately the person who was going to drive her home was asked to put her sheets in a laundry bag."

Where did you get the part about the "more accurately the person who was going to driver her home"? That wasn't in the article. Is that your assumption of events?

Alundil,

Don't let me interrupt your brain aneurysm here, but I was replying to dex71 (and I guess, by extension those in the first page of the thread using this to bash UHC, but not as much). I actually quoted the post that I was replying to (a post written by dex71 and not Alundil), which was in fact drawing a parallel, hence why my post discussed the efficiacy of making that parallel. Since you put in all that time writing a reply (twice, apparently) I'll respond to your post, but just so we're clear I consider your initial post to have NOT been a knock against UHC, as that has been made QUITE clear in the last 7 pages of your posting along with the other esteemed gentlemen in this thread, which I did read.

Originally Posted by Alundil

Fucking forum ate my first response

Toad - if you are, again erroneously comparing my relation of this story to some devious plot to back hand universal healthcare, single payer, obamacare or fuck all else you might want to label it, give up now - close your TPG account and move on to something with less letters.

I am not comparing your relation of the story to a devious plot. I hope this means I can continue to post and that my reading credentials are no longer in doubt.

I've stated several times in this thread that I am not (and did not) mention this article in reference to a nationalized healthcare argument. I could care less that this took place in Sweden. It could have taken place in Podunk, IA for all I care. I posted the article as I thought it was a shitty thing to ask a recovering mother to do. Regardless of where it was, or who the hell paid for it. For God's sake (err I mean Science and Rainbowbrite) READ what I wrote instead of assuming that simply because I am conservative in most things and that Sweden's healthcare is "government run" that I must be posting articles against UHC by default.

See above.

Seriously? Are you going to imply that this is the most serious medical complaint that has arisen in countries with UHC? Are you going to imply that the USA's privatized healthcare (PHC) is the only healthcare with "serious" complaints and that simply by dint of being "gubment run" that UHC are fantastic? Really? Excuse me while I LOL in your general direction. My God man (oops I did it again) are you that in bed with the delusion that "I'm right and you're wrong" that you cant' see the very easily seen reality that medical issues (and mistakes and gross malpractice and cost overruns and __________ and ____________ and____________ (yeah those too) and _________ for good measure) exist in both systems regardless of where the $$, euros, kronor, francs, marks, yuan, etc come from?

Overruns, malpractice, and mistakes exist in any system. However, overall quality of life is higher, cost related to maintain that quality of life generally lower in countries with UHC. I believe this has been discussed in other threads. This particular complaint being tossed around as an example against UHC, which did actually happen although let it be known not by Alundil, was an example of "argument by anecdotal example" as noted earlier.

I'll repeat, for probably the third time (third time's the charm I hope), that my posting this article and subsequent discussion thereof has nothing to do with UHC vs. PHC (unless that is you want it to - but I can't imagine you want to start that debate with "^^ is the most serious complaint you have against UHC" lawl).

I have already repeated that my comment was not directed at you three times so I will refrain from further mention of the fact.

I'd rather not have to go hunting for tragic incidents of medical errors around the world though.



We weren't, but thanks for playing.


Sigh - riiiiiiiight because people who disagree with government run healthcare are, by default, evil and cruel and lacking in any sense of human compassion. I can't decide whether that would be best classified as this, or perhaps blatant silliness and a some whole-hearted fearmongering and class warfare....yeah man woohoo. Congrats.

You didn't quote my entire statement in your reply, and your statement doesn't cover what I said very well, but since we are not debating UHC vs. the current system we can drop it for now I guess.

You want to do a UHC vs PHC thread - good on you and go for it. This ain't it pal.

As for the link you provided from the CDC.....Those percentages you listed do not paint the whole picture.
From 2009 data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/ea...nsur201006.htm

That shows 80.2% of adults are covered in one form or another (private/public)
It also shows that 93.4% of children are covered in one form or another.

I said that 20% of adults and 9% of children weren't covered. Your graph shows 21% of adults weren't covered and 8% of children weren't covered. I don't see how this is a resounding disproof of what I stated... in fact, it shows that almost 13% of children aren't covered for at least part of the year!

But numbers can be spun in many different ways. For instance, the CDC numbers (from IHS) consider parties covered under IHS to be uninsured. According to IHS' website, they cover approximately 1.9 million people. That's a fairly large number taken out of the insured group and counted as uninsured, even though they have insurance coverage provided by the federal government.

The USA has approximately 300 million people. 2 million people is less than 1% of this. I still don't see how this is a resounding disproof of my numbers. I can post something like "+ or - 1% error" if it'll make you happy in the future.

Where did you get the part about the "more accurately the person who was going to driver her home"? That wasn't in the article. Is that your assumption of events?

The story mentioned that "the baby's father" was helping her with care indicating that he was at the hospital. I assumed that he wasn't going to be with her at the hospital and then suddenly say "Drive yourself home, I'm going out on the town." because generally hospitals don't like people who recently had surgery driving themselves, and people who have recently had surgery also don't like driving themselves. I also assumed that the hospital wasn't going to say "Only Elin can put the sheets in the laundry bag! Back off buddy!" and prevented the husband from helping out, because that would have likely been outrageous enough to make it into the story. These assumptions aren't exactly way out in left field, although I guess if you are all fired up about it we can discuss further...

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

And, Alundil's graph doesn't show the number of under-insured. Here in Europe you're all the way covered and not just a little bit. So the real question is, how many people are uninsured and under-insured? Basically it's the same thing.

Stop making so much sense Trigger and Toad......