Thread: Handguns at recess

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

Haha, so you've solved the centuries-long nature vs. nurture debate? Do you have evidence to back this up?

Yeah, I am a student of neuropsychology.

Certain disorders (APD spectrum) show frontal-lobe abberations that are simply different from others. Serial killers and extremely violent offenders typically display this. They have it from a very young age; we know now because we are finding them younger. Someone with APD does not feel the way "normal" people do. They can mimic the appearance of emotion, but have no empathy whatsoever in severe cases. the 6 year old that kills kittens is likely to hurt people later; and they show this physical difference in brain structure.

Also something as simple as oxytocin receptor coding in your genes. Some people do not code for as many oxytocin receptors as others as a matter of their genetic mixing. Oxytocin is a neurotransmitter involved in pro-social behavior. Simply put: humans with less oxytocin receptors are less altruistic.

It is a complex system, and nurture matters; but nature plays a very strong role in development. So does peer influence which is also outside of parenting. The concern over guns in school stems from the rash of shootings (outside of inner city-schools which have always had shootings) in the last couple of decades. Those kids are typically disturbed, and all come from a variety of parenting backgrounds. The influences there were peer based and for the leaders physical; some of these kids have APD.

Some people with APD can be incredibly charismatic, and influence others who might have other problems fairly easily. Since they do not actually care about the person at all, it is easy to make promises they do not intend to honor.

Family is likely to help determine your moral, religious and political ideology (but not always, peers help with this as well); while temperament is totally inherited. Each of us has a temperament very similar to one of our parents.


Please note, most of what I just discussed, and the bulk of neuroscience is very-very new. New technology (fMRI and modern computers) has allowed to make leaps and bounds in the last decade and a half.

I could go on all day ... I would cite sources ... but I would have to scan a bunch of books. If I looked I could find articles online to the public probably, but there are so many thousands of them on different but relative topics, I am not going that way.

I did not mean to imply it is all nature ... but in most cases it is not the parenting (as is popularly believed). It is a nonlinear dynamic system and hard to say "what" caused anything terribly specific, the wrong genetic mix can go awry under the healthiest of nurturing, while the right genetic mix may come out of enormous trials unscathed and pro-social.

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

Yeah, I am a student of neuropsychology.

Certain disorders (APD spectrum) show frontal-lobe abberations that are simply different from others. Serial killers and extremely violent offenders typically display this. They have it from a very young age; we know now because we are finding them younger. Someone with APD does not feel the way "normal" people do. They can mimic the appearance of emotion, but have no empathy whatsoever in severe cases. the 6 year old that kills kittens is likely to hurt people later; and they show this physical difference in brain structure.

Also something as simple as oxytocin receptor coding in your genes. Some people do not code for as many oxytocin receptors as others as a matter of their genetic mixing. Oxytocin is a neurotransmitter involved in pro-social behavior. Simply put: humans with less oxytocin receptors are less altruistic.

It is a complex system, and nurture matters; but nature plays a very strong role in development. So does peer influence which is also outside of parenting. The concern over guns in school stems from the rash of shootings (outside of inner city-schools which have always had shootings) in the last couple of decades. Those kids are typically disturbed, and all come from a variety of parenting backgrounds. The influences there were peer based and for the leaders physical; some of these kids have APD.

Some people with APD can be incredibly charismatic, and influence others who might have other problems fairly easily. Since they do not actually care about the person at all, it is easy to make promises they do not intend to honor.

Family is likely to help determine your moral, religious and political ideology (but not always, peers help with this as well); while temperament is totally inherited. Each of us has a temperament very similar to one of our parents.


Please note, most of what I just discussed, and the bulk of neuroscience is very-very new. New technology (fMRI and modern computers) has allowed to make leaps and bounds in the last decade and a half.

I could go on all day ... I would cite sources ... but I would have to scan a bunch of books. If I looked I could find articles online to the public probably, but there are so many thousands of them on different but relative topics, I am not going that way.

I did not mean to imply it is all nature ... but in most cases it is not the parenting (as is popularly believed). It is a nonlinear dynamic system and hard to say "what" caused anything terribly specific, the wrong genetic mix can go awry under the healthiest of nurturing, while the right genetic mix may come out of enormous trials unscathed and pro-social.

whats it say bout me when reading the highlighted text i compare it to differnt anime bad guys ?

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

That's great to hear, Soy. My bachelor's was in neuroscience, but we generally stayed around the cellular and systems level. Your original statement suggested that all "good/bad" behavior was genetically predetermined. I've never heard of the APD spectrum, and I can't find anything that seems relevant. Is this meant to explain the majority of violent offenders?

Antisocial Personality Disorder. Not all diagnoses of APD show neurological difference, but most do (if we want to spend the money to look for it). This diagnosis is older than the neuroscience that showed us the vast majority of APD diagnoses have a difference in structure of the (I want to say orbital region) of the PFC where pro-social behavior is governed. These people are not common, and do not make up the bulk of violent offenders; but many of the kids who have gone on shootings appear to show signs of APD or were diagnosed later. Typically a multiple muderder, especially one that does it with little justification, is also an APD case.

The definition is in the DSM, but as a disorder, it is a sliding scale of behavior. Not all AP is a D.


What I am getting at, is the ones who freak out and shoot people, come from a variety of backgrounds, and we now know there are genetic and neurophysiological elements that strongly influence behavior (the oxytocin studies revolving around the "dictator game" are a great example), so it is unlikely that the parenting was the (sole) cause.

Given the same choices, people are literally biologically inclined to take one or the other as well as what their previous instruction has told them (peers, family). And in some cases biology can be much stronger than good educating. A sad fact is that in many cases peers can be more influential than family.

Serial killers are very frequently APD cases with frontal lobe abnormalities; with most of the others being schizophrenia spectrum. Both of which are biological (provided the APD is consistent with some 80+% of other diagnoses).

My little brother like to make hand gestures that he see from cartoons. He had to give my mother a note that was written by teacher saying my little brother was throwing gang signs in school. My brother at time was 6 years old and has no idea even now what a gang is... So yeah I'm not surprised about a gun gesture with hands...

Soy, how much would it cost to get analyzed by someone like you in neuroscience? I'm always looking to understand myself more.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

Soy, how much would it cost to get analyzed by someone like you in neuroscience? I'm always looking to understand myself more.

lol! Not much, man. I studied this mostly because of my interest in AI; I am mostly studied in cognitive neuroscience, not applied psychology. And an fMRI is super expensive anyway.