Thread: I guess he was pretty il...

Originally Posted by Guyver

LOL..here we go again. YOU make a condescending reply, and you I'M the one trolling.

Get it straight, you didn't have to reply to my staged post...but you did...and your reply had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the post, other than to try to be a superior know-it-all. Also, I'll post anywhere I choose...so, get use to it.

Like i said not interested. Get a new hobby.

Originally Posted by AetheLove

No.

Also, I didn't say that.

There's some thing (hope, faith, confidence, an idea, a dream, love, whatever) that we put on our leaders. In the US, that seems broadly spread out - president, senator, governor, etc - and divided (by party, by issue). It's also limited by time (term limits), and whim (vote out the incumbent!), and is often withheld (some of us are pissed off at the current X). In the DPRK, all of that is concentrated, in one person, over a lifetime.

We view our leaders differently than do those stuck in an hereditary dictatorship and cut off from the rest of the world, but not because I think we're fundamentally different as humans.





Oh now you're just being pissy.

If you're honestly curious about political leadership, you might like this book:

"Political Leadership : Towards a General Analysis", by Jean Blondel.

I dont see your justification for why we view them differently. Who is to say they dont feel the exact same way about their leader? I dont know any NK's so i cant ask them.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I dont see your justification for why we view them differently.

Ok.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Who is to say they dont feel the exact same way about their leader?

Well, right now the "who" is me. I'm not a very good one to be saying it though. There are people who have been to NK (in some cases clandestinely), and you can read their experiences. There are lots of examples of people who study that sort of government and society, and I guess there are a fair number of comparisons to other sorts of cults.

Because their government does a much better job of actively punishing dissent than ours, it's hard to know how much there might be. I have a hard time believing that they're all sucked into the adoration of their leader, but I have no way to know.

Part of my justification (such as it is) is that we do a better job in this country of not protecting idols. My views of what goes on here are partly based on my ability to read what other people in other countries think of us and our leaders.

I've travelled to many other places and talked to the people who live there. That affected me in a number of ways. For example, I got to hear them tell me things about their people and their government that were absolutely ludicrous. Eventually it dawned on me that me and my fellow Americans might be susceptible to making the same sort of mistakes. Another example: I got to hear comments and criticisms of my own country that, with the benefit of distance, actually made a lot of sense but which might never have occurred to me if I'd never strayed beyond my physical or intellectual comfort zone.

I think blasphemy is healthy. I respect Christianity and the teachings of Jesus, but the relentless efforts by some Christians to encroach on our government to gain preference and protection worry me. I think lots of people who criticize the president are assholes, morons, and lunatics - but it's good that they get to say those things. I think burning the flag is almost always a bad choice, but preserving the option is the best choice any of us could make. Distinguishing between the thing, and the idea represented by the thing, is crucial.

The North Koreans don't get those options. They don't get any perspective. Their leadership is relentless about protecting idols. My justification comes down to this:

They don't get out much.

This conclusion is inductive. Standard disclaimers apply.

There may be many there who suspect that the Dear Leader is full of shit, but they have no way to explore those thoughts. There may be many who are dissidents in their hearts, but they have no access to dissenting opinions to help them get traction.

Here's a story that may help illustrate (credit to DFW, who probably didn't sell much in the DPRK):

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?"

When all you know is water, you don't even know about water.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I dont know any NK's so i cant ask them.

Yeah. Me either - hence the cheeseburger offer. But I have read interviews with people who used to live there.

... and I hope, for their sake, that there are still a few older fish around.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by AetheLove

Ok.




Well, right now the "who" is me. I'm not a very good one to be saying it though. There are people who have been to NK (in some cases clandestinely), and you can read their experiences. There are lots of examples of people who study that sort of government and society, and I guess there are a fair number of comparisons to other sorts of cults.

Because their government does a much better job of actively punishing dissent than ours, it's hard to know how much there might be. I have a hard time believing that they're all sucked into the adoration of their leader, but I have no way to know.

Part of my justification (such as it is) is that we do a better job in this country of not protecting idols. My views of what goes on here are partly based on my ability to read what other people in other countries think of us and our leaders.

I've travelled to many other places and talked to the people who live there. That affected me in a number of ways. For example, I got to hear them tell me things about their people and their government that were absolutely ludicrous. Eventually it dawned on me that me and my fellow Americans might be susceptible to making the same sort of mistakes. Another example: I got to hear comments and criticisms of my own country that, with the benefit of distance, actually made a lot of sense but which might never have occurred to me if I'd never strayed beyond my physical or intellectual comfort zone.

I think blasphemy is healthy. I respect Christianity and the teachings of Jesus, but the relentless efforts by some Christians to encroach on our government to gain preference and protection worry me. I think lots of people who criticize the president are assholes, morons, and lunatics - but it's good that they get to say those things. I think burning the flag is almost always a bad choice, but preserving the option is the best choice any of us could make. Distinguishing between the thing, and the idea represented by the thing, is crucial.

The North Koreans don't get those options. They don't get any perspective. Their leadership is relentless about protecting idols. My justification comes down to this:

They don't get out much.

This conclusion is inductive. Standard disclaimers apply.

There may be many there who suspect that the Dear Leader is full of shit, but they have no way to explore those thoughts. There may be many who are dissidents in their hearts, but they have no access to dissenting opinions to help them get traction.

Here's a story that may help illustrate (credit to DFW, who probably didn't sell much in the DPRK):




When all you know is water, you don't even know about water.




Yeah. Me either - hence the cheeseburger offer. But I have read interviews with people who used to live there.

... and I hope, for their sake, that there are still a few older fish around.

Cheers,


AetheLove

After our discussion i think i can safely say we arent that far apart on our opinions of this. You are a bit more articulate then i am. You kind of finesse the nail into the hole. Where i just hit it with a hammer.