Thread: Question about programming.

I haaaaaaatw java. C++ is fine. They really should use python for intro courses.

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Originally Posted by grayman

Here the thing with programming languages. They're literally languages like Spanish and Japanese. If you're going to visit Spain you're not going to want to learn Japanese.

If you have to take both then it doesn't really matter which you take first. But if you don't need to take both figure out what kind of programming you want to do in "real life" and figure out which of the languages is more applicable.

I would have to disagree with that a bit. It most certainly matters what language you start with. There are "easy" languages and there are "hard" languages. You don't want to start with a hard language and get frustrated. It could color your view of programming long term and you don't want that.

They are not so much like verbal languages as they are... say... maps. You might be able to read a map, but there are a lot of map types out there. But if you can read one map and understand the rules of map-reading, you are likely going to be able to read any map put in front of you. The same goes for programming. Each is ruled by fundamental logic. IF,THEN,ELSE,AND,OR,XOR,etc. As long as you have a reasonable handle on basic logic and know one language you should be able to look at code from pretty much any language and get at least the gist of what is going on (as long as it's not cryptic in nature as some are... brainfuck comes to mind... yes it's a real language). You might not be able to WRITE in that language because you don't have the necessary syntax rules, but the logic will always be the base on which it is built.

Start with java and learn the logic behind programming. Then you can dive into the more esoteric C/C++ and learn to deal with your own memory management, pointers, pointers to pointers... and all that CRAP. You'll learn stuff like linked lists and 10 years you'll get to wonder why the hell you learned them when you almost never have to use them.

If you plan to work in application development you'll want to learn higher level languages like C#, VB.NET, Java, etc. If you want to work in the games industry then you'll definitely want a background in C/C++/ASM and other low level stuff like the different shader languages (roughly equated to ASM).

For an intro to programming, take java. Then take c++. Then, after taking c++ forget java, it's sole purpose was to provide you an intro to programming, resist any urges to develope with it after words unless its deemed necessary.

C++ is terrible for a intro to programming. I've got 12 or so years of C++ programming under my belt and it still throws errors my way that I've not seen yet... and c++ errors are more along the lines of "something went wrong, dunno where, but here at this point, shit got so fucked up, I am lost on what to do" then the compiler rage quits. Where as most higher level languages are much more helpful "right here, you forgot a semi colon you waffle". Beyond this, for not knowing what you are doing, introing to programming with c++ is like teaching a how to shoot a weapon, class with apache gatling guns, or intro to wood carving with chainsaws. Fucking something up, is almost inevitable.

Originally Posted by grayman

Here the thing with programming languages. They're literally languages like Spanish and Japanese. If you're going to visit Spain you're not going to want to learn Japanese.

If you have to take both then it doesn't really matter which you take first. But if you don't need to take both figure out what kind of programming you want to do in "real life" and figure out which of the languages is more applicable.

Eh, programming languages are hierarchical, KISS: c is built on assembly, c++ is built on c, java / vb / c# / php / python is built on c++ / c. The lower level the language, the more fine control you have, conversely the higher you go, the more you can accomplish in fewer lines but at the cost of fine control.

If you learn c++, all downstream languages are very easy to pickup because language features are same as c++ minus (or plus) a few features. E.g. java is c++ without overloading, optional parameters, manual garbage collection, ~threading, etc.


However, trying to learn upstream, is quite different, you'll develop habits i.e. be absent minded about garbage collection, if you've spent too much time in java... The horrors I've seen from students who've been intro'ed to programming and continued programming in a higher level language, then to finally drop down to a lower level language... *shivers*.

However, I'd still strongly discourage a intro to programming via c++,

Originally Posted by Bunni

However, trying to learn upstream, is quite different, you'll develop habits i.e. be absent minded about garbage collection, if you've spent too much time in java... ,

This makes me remember when I slightly had to worry about garbage collection, then I remember I don't have to worry about it and I cry because why am I coding in java...

It really comes down to what type of career you want to pursue after school.

If your going to be a corporate applications developer then take the JAVA class and next learn C#. After that. learn SharePoint, Oracle CRM, SalesForce, or some other highly customizable product that takes a 1000 consultants to get it up and running. That is where the money is at in corporate IT.

If your going to be a mobile developer, learn Java (Android), JavaScript, and then tackle C (not C++) for the jump into Objective-C (iOS).

If you want to write device drivers, contribute to the Linux Kernel, or just want to really understand a low level language then learn C and then C++.

If you want to write video games, C++ all the way as that is probably what the game companies will look for assuming your a CS major. If your not a CS major.. its going to be tough.

Odds are JAVA will have the most value for you coming out of school until you figure out what you want to do.

stripped editor formatting from your post shatter. It was showing up as the background color on the dark theme and looked like it was a blank post.

What does the next programming course use, the reason I ask is that if you are going on in programming and they use Java as they do at my Alma Mater, you want to take Java, lest you are learning the language and whatever new nonsense they are trying to stuff in your head. This has happened to a number of my tutoring students.

-H

Originally Posted by Kanati8869

I would have to disagree with that a bit. It most certainly matters what language you start with. There are "easy" languages and there are "hard" languages. You don't want to start with a hard language and get frustrated. It could color your view of programming long term and you don't want that.

They are not so much like verbal languages as they are... say... maps. You might be able to read a map, but there are a lot of map types out there. But if you can read one map and understand the rules of map-reading, you are likely going to be able to read any map put in front of you. The same goes for programming. Each is ruled by fundamental logic. IF,THEN,ELSE,AND,OR,XOR,etc. As long as you have a reasonable handle on basic logic and know one language you should be able to look at code from pretty much any language and get at least the gist of what is going on (as long as it's not cryptic in nature as some are... brainfuck comes to mind... yes it's a real language). You might not be able to WRITE in that language because you don't have the necessary syntax rules, but the logic will always be the base on which it is built.

Start with java and learn the logic behind programming. Then you can dive into the more esoteric C/C++ and learn to deal with your own memory management, pointers, pointers to pointers... and all that CRAP. You'll learn stuff like linked lists and 10 years you'll get to wonder why the hell you learned them when you almost never have to use them.

If you plan to work in application development you'll want to learn higher level languages like C#, VB.NET, Java, etc. If you want to work in the games industry then you'll definitely want a background in C/C++/ASM and other low level stuff like the different shader languages (roughly equated to ASM).

That's definitely a good perspective on it. I guess I just seem human language differently than many people.