Vp Debate!

**triggerhappy2005** · 10-04-08, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by ...bigdog...

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Originally Posted by shatter99

It's pointless dealing with a someone like yourself who has such an inflated sense of self worth. I have been around this world, all over, everywhere. Not just on holiday. bigdog despite the image you project and an obvious talent with words I view you as limited. Where have you lived other than in Texas? If you have been anywhere then you would know that people everwhere are essentially the same. It's just the governments and languages that are different. You don't have any perspective. You're just some young guy who likes to say fuck alto. You don't impress me. Not that you should care but I see through your talk.

As one 40 year old to another.. stop acting like my 17 year old. Resorting to personnel attacks just underminds all your attempts to get readers to agree with your view. If you have too resort to these type of post then don't. Show the level of maturity you profess to exhibit since your ultimate goal is to convince undecided in the middle that your candidate is the best choice so they will go and vote in November.

Oh and bigdog doesn't resort to personal attacks. Fuck you shatter. I'll address him any way I choose. If you don't like it get out of the sandbox.

I call your arguments and points clown and ridiculous. I'm sure you're a nice person......somehow. And if you were ever to show up at a TTP event, I'd be the first to buy you a beer.

And then immediately say you're a dumb face.

Props for not using the word 'fuck'.

**~~hawgballs~~** · 10-04-08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

That's a pretty weak argument. Typical response.
1) Cops accuse you of having illegal narcotics in your home, and ask you to remove them.We aren't cops
2) You refuse to comply with the officers request
3) They now tell you they are coming to your house in a few days to confiscate the illegal narcotics
Now, anybody in their right mind will immidiately hide, move, or destroy the illegal narcotics.
4) Police arrive, and nothing is there
Sound familiar? We have satellites that can fucking show me a picutre of my street, house, car, the tree in my yard, from like 10-15 away. Surely we knew what the fuck was going down in Iraq. The Iraqis knew we were coming, and got rid of all the evidence (either that or passed it off).BULLSHIT! You say yourself that our satellites can show a pic of your street 10 ft away, so do you not think that the whole time we were "playing cops" that we didn't have eyes on the country as a whole? We couldn't see them tranfer WMD's to wherever they were to be hidden? Even still, we liberated a nation from an extremely evil dictator. Iraq is a helluva lot better off now than it was before we got there. Weher to begin....We empowered Iran, by taking away the only man in the region that was keeping them in check. This is one of ther reasons why we didn't go into Baghdad ib hte 90's as well as the prediction that we would be bogged down, like we are presently. And during the run-up for the invasion, if this were the sole reason to invade, it never would have happened. Hence the fabricated stories of Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq, and WMD'sAnd yes it is a responsibility of the US to help countries in need (When we can). "To whom much is given, much is required".

Don't buy into all the media bullshit that they are trying to feed you. The world loves the US, and those who dont are simply bitter because of the success and prosperity this country has had (as bigdog somewhat stated in another post). Is there a perfect nation? Obsolutely not. But we sure are at the top. Almost as idiotic as saying"They hate us because of our freedoms and liberties"

Your lame ass comment has been used for years. Try something new for pete's sake.I'd say your fucking excuses are rather sad and worn out as well, the only difference is that my argument is actually valid.

**~~hawgballs~~** · 10-04-08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by cop1991

Ah where to begin......

Lets start WAY back on a beautiful morning in September...... Were members of the terrorist group al queade hijacked 4 planes 3 of which hit there marks being the pentagon, the world trade center towers 1 & 2 and the fourth going down in a field in Pennsylvania because the people on the flight weren't going to take the hijacking bullshit.

Shortly after President Bush started "The War on Terrorism" which started with the invasion of Afghanistan and the dismantling of the Taliban government. 2 years later we had evidence of WMD's in Iraq,We did not have "evidence" we had very questionable intel. we went to the UN and they sent inspectors and were told by Saddam that they would be able to go wherever they wanted see whatever they wanted which wasn't the case.I recall seeing Hans Blix say that they did not have the weapons anylonger, nor the capabilities to produce WMD's Seeing as Saddam BROKE the resolutions the UN had set forth for the condition of the inspections we had every right to give the 48 hour ultimatum to Saddam and his sons before the invasion of Iraq.

Now at this time, I want you to think back..... Were you sitting there on the side lines going FUCK NO WE WON'T GO!Yes, I was. I recall trading in the DOW futures pit telling all of the RAH RAH idiots that this was a mistake. That this indeed was going to take away from Afghanistan. I saw the "Shock and Awe" campaign on a 30 ft tv screen. I made alot of money that day, but I still left the floor shaking my head. Or were you sitting in front of your television screen watching as we launched the largest air campaign against a country ever? The fact is now looking back we went in and didn't find what we wanted which is easy to say now when we have the advantage of looking back.Actually, with "nationalistic groupthinking" going on, it was much much easier to RAH RAH our way into an invasion. We had the advantage of people on the ground "weapons inpsectors" and they didn't find any weapons. So if we are the cops of the world, then we are either some pretty fucking crooked cops or just outright dumb ones.

The country fell into disarray and terrorist started coming to Iraq to have a chance to shoot at Americans even listing on there passport reason for visit "Jihad".So then you can agree that they wouldn't be in Iraq, if we weren't there. Heres were we have 2 options stay in Iraq clean it up put a new government in power that the people for the first time in DECADES will have a chance to vote in, or leave.Right, the Powell doctrine, "you broke it, you own it", which he was ridiculed for not being as overly optomistic as those that never foughtin/conducted a war.

We chose to stay and do what was RIGHT and fuck the terrorists up and clean up the country. We also started training the new Iraqi military and we have currently trained over 400,000 troops but there not ready just yet to control the country. For once everyone was able to participate in a FREE election and choose the leaders they wanted the leaders they thought would be best for their country.Yeah, and look at where we are at now. We didn't invade to give someone an election, and if this was offered as the sole reason to invade, it never would have happened. So we were lied to.

The objectives of the war in Iraq have changed from find the WMD to liberate a country that has been oppressed since Saddam has been in office but it all comes back to the simple fact we will not rest and the war will not be finished until every terrorist who thinks they have to blow up US soldiers, Women and children, are dead. SDo when you say the objectives changed, sounds like "the reasons we originally went in were BUNK, so in order to save face, we will move the goalpost and make-up another reason 'FREEDOM' " This is some pretty dumb shit.eve

**...bigdog...** · 10-04-08, 03:52 PM

hawgballs......your argument here is about 5 years out of date. where have you been? Saying the weapon inspectors on the ground didn't find anything.......seriously man, what planet do you live on?

If history, to you, means monday morning quarterbacking, with no chronology or relevance.......then you can't be debated with. If we knew sadaam was full of shit, totally bluffing, and simply being the egotistical prick ass we have found out he is....then perhaps the war was not necessary. Are you willing to accept that same bluff from North Korea? Or how about from Iran?

and what are the consequences of being wrong for both sides?

In the current situation, we remove a dick from power, free his people, set up a government, stabilize their infrastructure, and win some hearts and minds. Are we finished doing that yet.....no. Did we do it perfectly? irrelevant. That's like criticizing the allies sectoring and seperation of Germany following the 2nd world war, leading to some of the major standoffs and points of contention in the Cold War, and dividing Europe. AT THE TIME...it was the right thing to do. And GIVEN TIME, it has turned out to be good that it was done. Same goes for the brainwashing and history re-writing we had to do for Japan to become what it is today.

So, TODAY, the monday morning quarterbacks can complain about how the war started, and what's going on now...but they don't apply that same monday morning criticism to themselves when....for example......somalia is left to rot, implodes on itself, dissolves any form of government, and is now holding the Gulf of Aden hostage through piracy. Or for leaving Sudan and Darfur to themselves, assuming they're just going to get along.

That blood is on your 'war is bad, peace is good' hands. those people die because you're too worried about looking stupid than helping people. too busy trying to sound smart, rather than be right.

Iraq is a better place, and will be a better country than it ever had a chance to be within the next 10 years. A bastion of free thought and religion in the middle east. A place where FINALLY, it can be shown that middle easterners CAN show discipline, stop killing eachother, and be civilized. something that is not being shown in Syria, lebanon, palestine, israel, jordan, yemen, Saudia Arabia, Iran.....hell, even Turkey.

So get some perspective, and start taking some fault for your ideals. Hands-off, "let god sort em out" mentalities like yours are the same kinds of bullshit that causes things like WWII. Let things spiral out of control, and then blame everyone else but yourself for being caught up in the whirl wind.

Even now....you're going to ignore everything I've said up here, and bring up some "where are the WMD's" bullshit rhetoric, when I've already explained that it's not about the WMD's. It's about doing what's right. Legally.

**...bigdog...** · 10-04-08, 03:58 PM

and yes, the "legally" comment is bait. Please...please please take it.

**Potemkine** · 10-04-08, 04:25 PM

I was all excited to get into this argument but it would seem Bigdog and Cop already said what I was going to say. Damn. :3

Oh for the record Bigdog, not all college students follow what the media say verbatim, swallow it hook line and sinker. There are some of us (admittedly a small minority) who are independent, free thinking, and informed. But that's a minor point.

**reject_wolf** · 10-04-08, 04:28 PM

Okay, I understand your WWII analogy, and I totally agree with it Bigdog, except for one part, Iraq was no where near the threat that Iran or North Korea appear to be. So why start with Iraq, when Nazi Germany and 2003 Iraq do not cast any sort of resemblance ?

**Potemkine** · 10-04-08, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by reject_wolf

Okay, I understand your WWII analogy, and I totally agree with it Bigdog, except for one part, Iraq was no where near the threat that Iran or North Korea appear to be. So why start with Iraq, when Nazi Germany and 2003 Iraq do not cast any sort of resemblance ?

YES my turn!!!

Reason for that is simply, chronology. At the time Iraq was deemed to be the preeminent threat. At the time, Iran was not that powerful and was not seeking nuclear technology. It was only in the past year or so that it occurred. Out of the problems in Iraq, Iran became a powerhouse because it was the last stop for terrorists before Iraq. As for North Korea. Again, chronology. North Korea did not start making waves until 2005 when they announced they had nuclear weapons and the missiles needed for delivery

As for the Nazi Germany and Iraq 2003 connection, Germany was not seen as a threat until they unleashed their army. Europe acted on appeasement which we all know is beyond stupid. By that point Germany was too strong. Again it has to do with pussy footing leaders not willing to do what is necessary. We learned our lesson. We took out Saddam before we had to resort to appeasement.

**reject_wolf** · 10-04-08, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Potemkine

Originally Posted by reject_wolf

Okay, I understand your WWII analogy, and I totally agree with it Bigdog, except for one part, Iraq was no where near the threat that Iran or North Korea appear to be. So why start with Iraq, when Nazi Germany and 2003 Iraq do not cast any sort of resemblance ?

YES my turn!!!

Reason for that is simply, chronology. At the time Iraq was deemed to be the preeminent threat. At the time, Iran was not that powerful and was not seeking nuclear technology. It was only in the past year or so that it occurred. Out of the problems in Iraq, Iran became a powerhouse because it was the last stop for terrorists before Iraq. As for North Korea. Again, chronology. North Korea did not start making waves until 2005 when they announced they had nuclear weapons and the missiles needed for delivery

As for the Nazi Germany and Iraq 2003 connection, Germany was not seen as a threat until they unleashed their army. Europe acted on appeasement which we all know is beyond stupid. By that point Germany was too strong. Again it has to do with pussy footing leaders not willing to do what is necessary. We learned our lesson. We took out Saddam before we had to resort to appeasement.

Nazi Germany was a whole different story than Iraq though. Germany was (and still is) a country with a history scientists and innovators. Many of them made innovations in fields like calculus (Leibniz), engineering (Daimler), and physics (Einstein, Planck.) This history of innovation contrasts with Iraq's non-existent innovation. While they still have scientists and such, they lack the brains the Germans always seem to have on hand. I really couldn't see a country becoming a powerhouse by buying old Russian tanks and planes. Seems like Iraq was just he easiest way to get in the M.E., and I would agree with them if that is why they are there.

**Potemkine** · 10-04-08, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by reject_wolf

Originally Posted by Potemkine

Originally Posted by reject_wolf

Okay, I understand your WWII analogy, and I totally agree with it Bigdog, except for one part, Iraq was no where near the threat that Iran or North Korea appear to be. So why start with Iraq, when Nazi Germany and 2003 Iraq do not cast any sort of resemblance ?

YES my turn!!!

Reason for that is simply, chronology. At the time Iraq was deemed to be the preeminent threat. At the time, Iran was not that powerful and was not seeking nuclear technology. It was only in the past year or so that it occurred. Out of the problems in Iraq, Iran became a powerhouse because it was the last stop for terrorists before Iraq. As for North Korea. Again, chronology. North Korea did not start making waves until 2005 when they announced they had nuclear weapons and the missiles needed for delivery

As for the Nazi Germany and Iraq 2003 connection, Germany was not seen as a threat until they unleashed their army. Europe acted on appeasement which we all know is beyond stupid. By that point Germany was too strong. Again it has to do with pussy footing leaders not willing to do what is necessary. We learned our lesson. We took out Saddam before we had to resort to appeasement.

Nazi Germany was a whole different story than Iraq though. Germany was (and still is) a country with a history scientists and innovators. Many of them made innovations in fields like calculus (Leibniz), engineering (Daimler), and physics (Einstein, Planck.) This history of innovation contrasts with Iraq's non-existent innovation. While they still have scientists and such, they lack the brains the Germans always seem to have on hand. I really couldn't see a country becoming a powerhouse by buying old Russian tanks and planes. Seems like Iraq was just he easiest way to get in the M.E., and I would agree with them if that is why they are there.

You are correct that Iraq doesn't have the intellectual capitol that Germany has. But what would stop Iraq from importing knowledge? Hell that's what the US did up and through the late 1800's. That does not make them any less powerful. They just imported the technology. Hell the reason Pakistan became nuclear is because one of their scientists came here, studied, went back headed up their research program got them nukes. Then he sold his expertise to the highest bidder. Yes Pakistan is bit of a joke in the minds of the west. But the fact that they are nuclear makes them a major player. My point is, you nip the potential problem (another state with WMD's) in the bud and things in the long run are much better.