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Thread: Vp Debate!
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10-04-08, 05:49 PM #101
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by ...bigdog...
And no it has proven to be a bad decision. bigdog it's ok to throw out your opinion but please stop acting like you've got it all figured out. You present all your arguements as if no intelligent person could disagree with you and if they do, then they're just simpletons and misguided. Leave open the possibilty that you may be wrong especially on topice as complicated as the cold war.
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10-04-08, 05:55 PM #102
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by Potemkine
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10-04-08, 06:59 PM #104
Re: Vp Debate!
hawgballs......your argument here is about 5 years out of date. where have you been? Saying the weapon inspectors on the ground didn't find anything.......seriously man, what planet do you live on?
If history, to you, means monday morning quarterbacking, with no chronology or relevance.......then you can't be debated with. If we knew sadaam was full of shit, totally bluffing, and simply being the egotistical prick ass we have found out he is....then perhaps the war was not necessary. Are you willing to accept that same bluff from North Korea? Or how about from Iran?
and what are the consequences of being wrong for both sides?
In the current situation, we remove a dick from power, free his people, set up a government, stabilize their infrastructure, and win some hearts and minds. Are we finished doing that yet.....no. Did we do it perfectly? irrelevant. That's like criticizing the allies sectoring and seperation of Germany following the 2nd world war, leading to some of the major standoffs and points of contention in the Cold War, and dividing Europe. AT THE TIME...it was the right thing to do. And GIVEN TIME, it has turned out to be good that it was done. Same goes for the brainwashing and history re-writing we had to do for Japan to become what it is today.
So, TODAY, the monday morning quarterbacks can complain about how the war started, and what's going on now...but they don't apply that same monday morning criticism to themselves when....for example......somalia is left to rot, implodes on itself, dissolves any form of government, and is now holding the Gulf of Aden hostage through piracy. Or for leaving Sudan and Darfur to themselves, assuming they're just going to get along.
That blood is on your 'war is bad, peace is good' hands. those people die because you're too worried about looking stupid than helping people. too busy trying to sound smart, rather than be right.
Iraq is a better place, and will be a better country than it ever had a chance to be within the next 10 years. A bastion of free thought and religion in the middle east. A place where FINALLY, it can be shown that middle easterners CAN show discipline, stop killing eachother, and be civilized. something that is not being shown in Syria, lebanon, palestine, israel, jordan, yemen, Saudia Arabia, Iran.....hell, even Turkey.
So get some perspective, and start taking some fault for your ideals. Hands-off, "let god sort em out" mentalities like yours are the same kinds of bullshit that causes things like WWII. Let things spiral out of control, and then blame everyone else but yourself for being caught up in the whirl wind.
Even now....you're going to ignore everything I've said up here, and bring up some "where are the WMD's" bullshit rhetoric, when I've already explained that it's not about the WMD's. It's about doing what's right. Legally.
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Five years old, and still very valid ands relevant. Did they find any WMD's? No, they didn't. What they found were INERT artie rounds. That surpassed thier shelf life. The "chemicals" that were in the artie rounds were deemed less dangerous than table salt. Invading a soveriegn country, expending $10 billion a month and a loss of 4000+ lives, is a little too much to pay for a couple of inert artie rounds.
We had Iraq on lock-down for years. They were not capable of making nuclear missiles. They weren't close. No Iraq was not a necessary war. Comparing Iraq and North Korea is like comparing apples and oranges. Iraq never had the capability of neither making nuclear arms nor the capability of delivering them to the US. Whereas, we knew of North Korea's capabilities. Iran, would not be as powerful as it is today, if we did not invade Iraq.
In the current situation, we remove a dick from power, free his people, set up a government, stabilize their infrastructure, and win some hearts and minds. Are we finished doing that yet.....no. Did we do it perfectly? irrelevant.
Iraq is NOT a better place than it used to be. And I higthly doubt that it will be much better in 10. A bastion of what? We replaced a somewhat secular Sunni leader, and replaced him with a Shiite government closely aligned with Shiite rulers of Iran. I have a simple question, have you ever been to the middle east? You are really showing your ignorance with this statement......it can be shown that middle easterners CAN show discipline, stop killing eachother, and be civilized. something that is not being shown in Syria, lebanon, palestine, israel, jordan, yemen, Saudia Arabia, Iran.....hell, even Turkey.
So get some perspective, start taking some fault from YOUR ideals. Maybe get off of your fat ass, leave Texas for a lil bit, do some traveling. Get out of the country for a while, and see how we Americans are truly seen. Maybe get real life experience and some knowledge of those "undisciplined" countries. In short, inform yourself, that way you won't come off as an wholly ignorant ugly american.
But you are right about one thing though, I am going to completely ignore the drivel that you spewed in your last post. And moving the goal posts by saying "it's not about the WMD's" is bullshit. That was THE reason we were told as to why we were going to invade, it wasn't correct then and it certainly isn't correct now.
I'm done
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10-04-08, 07:56 PM #105
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005
It wasn't the right or wrong thing to do. It was the only thing to do. We couldn't tell Russia to go to hell, and we couldn't give them Germany because we knew what they'd do to it. So we had to compromise.
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10-04-08, 08:28 PM #106
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by reject_wolfCode:____ U ___ u _____ U _____ u __ __ ____ _ __ _ _ U _____ u U| _"\ u \/"_ \/|_ " _| \| ___"|/U|' \/ '|uU| _"\ u|"|/ / ___ | \ |"| \| ___"|/ \| |_) |/ | | | | | | | _|" \| |\/| |/\| |_) |/| ' / |_"_| <| \| |> | _|" | __/.-,_| |_| | /| |\ | |___ | | | | | __/U/| . \\u | | U| |\ |u | |___ |_| \_)-\___/ u |_|U |_____| |_| |_| |_| |_|\_\ U/| |\u |_| \_| |_____| ||>>_ \\ _// \\_ << >> <<,-,,-. ||>>_ ,-,>> \\,-.-,_|___|_,-.|| \\,-.<< >> (__)__) (__) (__) (__)(__) (__) (./ \.) (__)__) \.) (_/ \_)-' '-(_/ (_") (_/(__) (__)
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10-04-08, 09:02 PM #107
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by reject_wolf
if the UNSC is going to pass resolutions, bring up sanctions, blockade your trade, force inspections, and declare you in material breach, then you are a dangerous nation. Does it matter if you kill 10 million people, or 1 million? or even 100,000? Because you see it in terms like that is the reason we aren't giving a shit about what's going on in Africa. Or is it because they aren't white, wealthy, business loving jews and europeans? Is that why they matter less (and in their minds, that is the answer, and a source of HATE and empowerment for the terrorists to feed on).
You can't pick and choose who is bad and who is not. In the beginning days of appeasementalism and weakness in addressing the Nazi threat in Europe, I'm sure there were many...if not a majority of voices like yours, saying "well, germany now isn't what it was in WWI....there's no reason to start a war with germany now".
You assume everything is going to be fine, so you do nothing. And that, in any situation....life....business....politics....war.. ...is stupid.
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10-04-08, 09:07 PM #108
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by Potemkine
how many super carrier groups do we have? how many soldiers, total? Air assets? Bases in _____region?
If we were prepared to stand toe to toe with the USSR, taking on N.K., Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, AND the entire continent of Africa, all at once, is not an issue.
The issue is that there's not enough air time for the media networks to cover it all, and that makes them unhappy, so it must be impossible.
Overextended.........please. Go read some worldfactbook, and figure out what % of forces we have in Iraq and afghanistan, combined. 10%? 15%? Sure, we're not used to having high levels of readiness....but that doesn't mean we can't do so when it's required.
Don't let people use that as an excuse. If we can't fight pitiful nations like Iran and Iraq at once....then how the fuck do you defeat super states like GErmany and Japan in WWII, or stand down russia?
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10-04-08, 09:36 PM #109
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by ...bigdog...
2. Number 1 answers the first half of the paragraph, the second half makes little sense, unless it was not directed towards me?
3. The Great Depression hit, and it was just after the Great War, I don't think countries had the ability to fight or wanted to fight. They were more or less hoping it would all just go away after the horrors of World War I. Obviously if they would have acted earlier the war would have been a much smaller scale then it ended up being.
4. I don't recall saying "do nothing" anywhere. I said there were bigger fish to fry if they could only pick one other country
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10-05-08, 12:41 AM #110
Re: Vp Debate!
Originally Posted by ...bigdog...
The reason we were able to take down those countries is due to the draft. We do not have a draft. Yet. Trust me bigdog, I am on your side in this issue.Code:____ U ___ u _____ U _____ u __ __ ____ _ __ _ _ U _____ u U| _"\ u \/"_ \/|_ " _| \| ___"|/U|' \/ '|uU| _"\ u|"|/ / ___ | \ |"| \| ___"|/ \| |_) |/ | | | | | | | _|" \| |\/| |/\| |_) |/| ' / |_"_| <| \| |> | _|" | __/.-,_| |_| | /| |\ | |___ | | | | | __/U/| . \\u | | U| |\ |u | |___ |_| \_)-\___/ u |_|U |_____| |_| |_| |_| |_|\_\ U/| |\u |_| \_| |_____| ||>>_ \\ _// \\_ << >> <<,-,,-. ||>>_ ,-,>> \\,-.-,_|___|_,-.|| \\,-.<< >> (__)__) (__) (__) (__)(__) (__) (./ \.) (__)__) \.) (_/ \_)-' '-(_/ (_") (_/(__) (__)
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