Thread: Seperation of church and state

Originally Posted by Consultant

I always saw (and see today) Free Will and Predestination as two ends of the same rope strung over a pulley.

If you let go of either, you will fall.

God's got a plan for my life and he knows which way it goes and where I'll be at the end of the day, but I have the free will to chose several paths to get there. Basically - if God doesn't know what's going to happen next, then he isn't God. You can't surprise him, but you can choose freely. Did God know I was going to type that? Proably - he even knew I would spell that word wrong - but I did it anyway. And just to throw him off, I'll NOT go correct it!

But that doesn't make sense. Destiny and fate imply that your choices have been made for you well beforehand, and that you're only presented with the illusion that you actually have a choice in the matter.

Using the example of God, he has a plan and knows what choices you will make and when you will make them. That's fate, that's destiny, and you have absolutely no free will. If you do make a choice that isn't part of God's plan, you just proved that God is fallible, which ruins a lot of the Christian theme of a perfect, omnipotent being.

You could say that God knew you would change your mind and make that different choice... but if he knew, he incorporated it into his plan, and you really didn't have a choice, anyway.

I honestly don't see how you can logically defend an existence where you have both a set fate, and yet also have true free will. It seems indefensible unless you go back to faith, which isn't a logical or reasonable position to begin with.

Originally Posted by Glock

Originally Posted by Consultant

I always saw (and see today) Free Will and Predestination as two ends of the same rope strung over a pulley.

If you let go of either, you will fall.

God's got a plan for my life and he knows which way it goes and where I'll be at the end of the day, but I have the free will to chose several paths to get there. Basically - if God doesn't know what's going to happen next, then he isn't God. You can't surprise him, but you can choose freely. Did God know I was going to type that? Proably - he even knew I would spell that word wrong - but I did it anyway. And just to throw him off, I'll NOT go correct it!

But that doesn't make sense. Destiny and fate imply that your choices have been made for you well beforehand, and that you're only presented with the illusion that you actually have a choice in the matter.

Using the example of God, he has a plan and knows what choices you will make and when you will make them. That's fate, that's destiny, and you have absolutely no free will. If you do make a choice that isn't part of God's plan, you just proved that God is fallible, which ruins a lot of the Christian theme of a perfect, omnipotent being.

You could say that God knew you would change your mind and make that different choice... but if he knew, he incorporated it into his plan, and you really didn't have a choice, anyway.

I honestly don't see how you can logically defend an existence where you have both a set fate, and yet also have true free will. It seems indefensible unless you go back to faith, which isn't a logical or reasonable position to begin with.

knowledge of choices and CONTROL over choices are two very different things.

you seem confused on this point.

Originally Posted by ebaconjr

Originally Posted by MaBell37

You'd be surprised. A good lawyer can create an argument out of nothing.

Can not.

FoW

THis thread gets longer and longer and longer....it's hard to keep up with the reading...nothing seems to fire up TTP than a debate on religion...politics a close second.