Thread: Weight lifting guru's. Supp question

yeah thanks for the advice, im leaning towards some creatine now.

You're right about the water, I do that anyways. I still want to know if anyone has tried androgen, even though creatine is much safer.

by taking creatine am I going to gain excessive weight? or will most of it be water weight?

Originally Posted by Hocus Pocus

If it is considered illegal I've been reading up on dhea, what do you think of that? I have to be careful about what I take because next semester hopefully I'll be trying out for a university track team.

To me, all advice is worth nothing until we know just what you're going for. Do you want to build, get toned, or actually concentrate on making that track team? If it's the track team, what do you concentrate on? Distances, as you know, really dictate what your goals should be geared towards, and the shape that your body should ideally be...

Short bursts, or endurance? I know you want intensity, but muscle mass is often something to avoid, as relative strength is where acceleration comes from. Mass kills endurance in my experience. Lifting heavier weights, and larger muscles do not mean greater performance.

Personally, I weigh ~140lbs at 6'1", but due to some persistance, and workouts geared towards my exact demands (rock climbing) can do one arm pullups, 2 fingertip pullups, etc, etc... No supplements at all. Am I skinny? Hell yes... Do I starve myself? Hells no. I eat what I want, so long as it meets the demands of my body until it's fairly close to 'game day'... Then I consider more carefully.

Taking breaks is something that I do alot of, and it's offered great results. In fact, my training usually runs in cycles, wherein the bulk of hard climbing comes after a break in intensive training just before warming back up, and hopping on the rock to attempt the stuff at my peak, and progress in performance. It allows your strength, and endurance to be at their peak when you actually call on it.

I've done a fair amount of reading, and I often see similar philosophy, though ideally more strict :P in numerous other sports of varied physical demand.

I haven't had too much luck with supplements either, so I gave up on 'em. Creatine actually increases water demands for muscle tissue, so increased water intake is a must. Part of the bulk gained from creatine is purely from water absorbtion, so increased mass is a given. Mostly, creatine will aid in anaerobic activity, but will gain you next to nothing for aerobic, and you'll be carrying more weight. The main thing with creatine is that you have to put in the work to make it work for you, otherwise you'll be carrying extra water with only the extra creatine for your body to use in short bursts.

There are a few possible side effects, which include issues with your legs. I'm guessing, from what little I know, that the more muscle mass you have in your legs, the more likely this is, so read up on it.

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Originally Posted by jabberwock

Originally Posted by Hocus Pocus

If it is considered illegal I've been reading up on dhea, what do you think of that? I have to be careful about what I take because next semester hopefully I'll be trying out for a university track team.

To me, all advice is worth nothing until we know just what you're going for. Do you want to build, get toned, or actually concentrate on making that track team? If it's the track team, what do you concentrate on? Distances, as you know, really dictate what your goals should be geared towards, and the shape that your body should ideally be...

Short bursts, or endurance? I know you want intensity, but muscle mass is often something to avoid, as relative strength is where acceleration comes from. Mass kills endurance in my experience. Lifting heavier weights, and larger muscles do not mean greater performance.

Personally, I weigh ~140lbs at 6'1", but due to some persistance, and workouts geared towards my exact demands (rock climbing) can do one arm pullups, 2 fingertip pullups, etc, etc... No supplements at all. Am I skinny? Hell yes... Do I starve myself? Hells no. I eat what I want, so long as it meets the demands of my body until it's fairly close to 'game day'... Then I consider more carefully.

Taking breaks is something that I do alot of, and it's offered great results. In fact, my training usually runs in cycles, wherein the bulk of hard climbing comes after a break in intensive training just before warming back up, and hopping on the rock to attempt the stuff at my peak, and progress in performance. It allows your strength, and endurance to be at their peak when you actually call on it.

I've done a fair amount of reading, and I often see similar philosophy, though ideally more strict :P in numerous other sports of varied physical demand.

I haven't had too much luck with supplements either, so I gave up on 'em. Creatine actually increases water demands for muscle tissue, so increased water intake is a must. Part of the bulk gained from creatine is purely from water absorbtion, so increased mass is a given. Mostly, creatine will aid in anaerobic activity, but will gain you next to nothing for aerobic, and you'll be carrying more weight. The main thing with creatine is that you have to put in the work to make it work for you, otherwise you'll be carrying extra water with only the extra creatine for your body to use in short bursts.

There are a few possible side effects, which include issues with your legs. I'm guessing, from what little I know, that the more muscle mass you have in your legs, the more likely this is, so read up on it.

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Right on, I'm concentrating on making the track team and I got about 9 or 10 months to do so. As far as distance i'm a short distance runner I run mainly 400m and 200m. So im looking for short bursts of speed with a little bit of endurance. I'm 6-2 200lbs flat I got a little beer fat but I stopped drinking so it's starting to slim out.

As far as the weight I work with I do a MAX OT routine which consists of 2 power sets ( about 3 warm up sets). Generally this lasts 8 weeks then I switch my routine upside down and focus on auxillary which is more reps less weight. I put a lot of emphasis on my legs, back, and shoulders as those are the most important in running. I'm not looking to bulk up as too much muscle mass equals stiffness and in any running sport you need to be able to have a full range of motion.

By the time I tryouts come I hope to have lost 20lbs ( healthy loss of course) and have my body ready to run consistently fast times everyday.

like you said im skeptical about supplements now because of all the stuff they create. It just seems like a big marketing frenzy. I have though heard good things about androgen, dhea, and other supplements. Mainly I'm looking for something to give me an intensity boost both in the gym and on the track. Also it would help if it was a good bodyfat burner.

But it needs to "legal" and non detrimental to my goals.

Hope that helps.

kind of sounds like I should stick to something simple like bcaa's

You guys know anything about ALA? I dont want glutamine I'm not really interested in n.o.

maybe just a multi vitamin?

This may go a bit off the topic you asked, but it's knowledge from training for ice hockey a few years back... Ice hockey shifts are generally 60 seconds or less, so that should fall well within the timeframe of a 400m. This is valuable knowledge if you're unfamiliar with it.

If 400m is the longest distance you generally run, you don't have to worry about aerobic efficiency nearly as much as anaerobic. Aerobic conditioning will contribute the absolute least of the energy systems used until the finish, when it'll be kicking in.

The first energy system you'll really put demand on is the creatine phosphate (ATP-PC) system, which only lasts for around 10 seconds, and is used for high energy output. It'll provide about 1.5x the output of anaerobic glycosis, and aerobic combined while it lasts. After 10 seconds, ATP-PC bricks, but anaerobic glycosis will be kicking in, and peaks at around 45 seconds. Just around a minute or after, aerobic output takes the leading role.

My advice for training is to look into just how these energy systems work, what they run on, and what you can do to maximize their output. Diet plays a huge role in the day or two prior to maximising output from the ATP-PC, and anaerobic systems.

If I were you, I'd concentrate not only on strength and weight, but also on exercises that work the desired energy system, and push the hell out of it. One of the things I found most useful was resistance training, where I was working the desired movements (skating in my case), with something added to make your muscles work well beyond their usual demands. For me, I was constantly dragging people around the rink as they dragged a skate, timed until just past the point of anaerobic fall off. It worked the full range of muscles that I used, was strength, and energy system training at the same time to boot. Dragging tires is much more useful than it looks!

Anaerobic conditioning, which should be a main goal, raises the lactate threshold, which allows for higher intensity activity before accumulation of lactic acid exceeds it's removal. Lactic acid, of course, slows muscle contractions, which decreases performance.

Plyometrics, as well!

Sorry if you're already familiar with this stuff, but I can't even tell you how usefull this is. Read up, maximise your anaerobic, and learn how your diet can prepare you for the times that matter!

Ditto Hawg. Mixing up the routine every 6 weeks or so was always my first line of defense against stagnation. I might take a true break for a week or so every 5-6 months, but when I was lifting seriously a week away was about all I could take without going nuts.

When I was lifting heavy I took the recommended dosage of Creatine and had good results muscle-wise, but tough on my gut. (Always stick with reputable brands- I like Prolab for good value. I knew some guys who had *nasty* reactions to some of the German stuff.) I added in the Glutamine after a little bit, and to be honest, I felt I got more out of the Glutamine. My recovery time from workout to workout was noticably better, my gut got better, (still taking the creatine with the Glutamine) and the soreness the day after heavy days was much less bothersome. So that makes for a nice combo. I wouldn't take the Creatine by itself any more.

I always stayed away from andro-type stuff- Just too many risks. No one has mentioned that it can, among it's potential negative side effects, fuck up your body's ability to produce the correct hormonal balance on it's own. Bad stuff.

For a track guy, I'm not sure even the Creatine is that great an idea. Mybe check out "Cuts II" and a decent thermogenic if you're trying to get a little more ripped.