Thread: Understanding the Stimulus Bill

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Keep in mind, that's just one example, I don't have the time since I'm at work to go through every single line item but I would love to later on. Anybody have the most up to date list of projects proposed in the stimulus plan?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...ims_uncertain/

Seems the folks who came up with it are highly uncertain of the job count creation themselves.

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

+2

I agree as well but I must emphasize that the greedy capitalist can do much more damage than the average joe because the greedy capitalist allows mr average joe to do so. The housing market is the perfect example; YES, people shouldn't have been taking out mortgages on something they can't afford but guess what, the greedy capitalists approved them. All of this would have been prevented if the greedy capitalists had denied these loans in the first place.

Like I said before, Dems believe people are inherintely stupid, that's why they like to increase regulations to keep greedy capitalists from taking advantage of the average DUMB american who doesn't know that his 2k monthly check won't pay for a 3k monthly mortgage.

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Keep in mind, that's just one example, I don't have the time since I'm at work to go through every single line item but I would love to later on. Anybody have the most up to date list of projects proposed in the stimulus plan?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...ims_uncertain/

Seems the folks who came up with it are highly uncertain of the job count creation themselves.

Sweet, I'll analyze this sucker tonight or tomorrow when I'm home,...assuming AT&T hasn't let me down again.

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

Well...

Completely free markets have a problem with externalities. They generate costs to society that are not included in the purchasing price. In the name of making as much output as possible with as few inputs as possible to maximize profits, many things can go by the wayside. And it is our tax dollars that have to go to deal with externalities. If the market gets regulated a little, the costs start including dealing with these externalities. On the other hand, taxes help to deal with these externalities. So there is an equilibrium between market/government control and tax rates to compensate for externalities.

And there is also the problem in that many of these corporations outsourced jobs; basically sending money to other countries instead of keeping it within our own economy. Again, to minimize inputs and maximize outputs. Likewise, these corporations have enough power to locate and exploit any legal loopholes they can find. Such that under regulations (or deregulation in this case) many banks were able to lend as if they had more money than actually do. This was good for their maximal output and minimal input. But in the end, these externalities (outsourcing, subprime lending, pollution, infrastructure degredation, etc) all come back to bite us in the ass some day.

The people are to blame too, don't get me wrong. But considering the average education level, understanding of issues, and general knowledge of the American people (especially recently) one can hardly blame them. Perhaps if education were more thorough, and easier to obtain, they would make smarter choices. The corporations on the other hand hire experts. And these experts, due to our free market system, are encouraged to find as many loopholes as possible to save as much money as possible. And that, as stated, will come around to bite us in the ass.

So yeah, everyone is to blame, but these mega corporations have experts unlike the average Joe who is absolutely not an expert. And these experts fucked up. I am all for a little more regulation: Tax incentives to keep jobs in the country, incentives for development of energy efficient technologies, incentives to buy goods made in the country, stiffer AND increasing penalties for pollution, disengagement of certain price floors and installation of price cielings in other cases, etc.

And when we talk about taxes versus the governments ability to maintain our society...nobody brings up the cost of the war. It is very expensive, and I assume that is where a huge amount of our money now goes. I have seen my tuition more than double since 2003, I have seen the prices of many other goods do likewise. War is an expensive investment.

Maybe we need a war tax? What do you war supporters think about that? This way it would allow the government to use the taxes we give them now for local activities. I like roads, police, education, healthcare, etc...

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

+2

I agree as well but I must emphasize that the greedy capitalist can do much more damage than the average joe because the greedy capitalist allows mr average joe to do so. The housing market is the perfect example; YES, people shouldn't have been taking out mortgages on something they can't afford but guess what, the greedy capitalists approved them. All of this would have been prevented if the greedy capitalists had denied these loans in the first place.

Like I said before, Dems believe people are inherintely stupid, that's why they like to increase regulations to keep greedy capitalists from taking advantage of the average DUMB american who doesn't know that his 2k monthly check won't pay for a 3k monthly mortgage.

The problem I have with that is that not all capitalists are greedy and Americans, though they can be caught up in things, are not inherently dumb people. Dangle the 'American Dream' in front of folks faces and some bite though.

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Keep in mind, that's just one example, I don't have the time since I'm at work to go through every single line item but I would love to later on. Anybody have the most up to date list of projects proposed in the stimulus plan?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...ims_uncertain/

Seems the folks who came up with it are highly uncertain of the job count creation themselves.

I was just about to post the same article.

This really does not look like it was well thought out... and that scares me a bit.

I worked for Wells Fargo during much of the housing boom. I would personally educate customers on why they should not take out a home equity loan on a house they already could not afford. In return for my kindness they would go to the bank or mortgage company down the street and get the exact same loan that I just explained to them would bankrupt them. The government is in for big trouble if they try to ban stupid.

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

+2

I agree as well but I must emphasize that the greedy capitalist can do much more damage than the average joe because the greedy capitalist allows mr average joe to do so. The housing market is the perfect example; YES, people shouldn't have been taking out mortgages on something they can't afford but guess what, the greedy capitalists approved them. All of this would have been prevented if the greedy capitalists had denied these loans in the first place.

Like I said before, Dems believe people are inherintely stupid, that's why they like to increase regulations to keep greedy capitalists from taking advantage of the average DUMB american who doesn't know that his 2k monthly check won't pay for a 3k monthly mortgage.

If that is what the US Government is here to do, then I fully expect laws soon that state who can/can't reproduce, how many times, under what conditions, etc. If I am too stupid to take care of myself why should the government allow me to have a kid that I won't be able to take care of? If I am too poor to provide for myself why should the government allow me to have a child I won't be able to provide for. Slippery slope!!!

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

+2

I agree as well but I must emphasize that the greedy capitalist can do much more damage than the average joe because the greedy capitalist allows mr average joe to do so. The housing market is the perfect example; YES, people shouldn't have been taking out mortgages on something they can't afford but guess what, the greedy capitalists approved them. All of this would have been prevented if the greedy capitalists had denied these loans in the first place.

Like I said before, Dems believe people are inherintely stupid, that's why they like to increase regulations to keep greedy capitalists from taking advantage of the average DUMB american who doesn't know that his 2k monthly check won't pay for a 3k monthly mortgage.

The problem I have with that is that not all capitalists are greedy and Americans, though they can be caught up in things, are not inherently dumb people. Dangle the 'American Dream' in front of folks faces and some bite though.

Since I recently bought a house, I just ran into this with a few Real Estate agents.

I went in to use their personal lender to see what we qualify for as far as loans go... what they consider qualifying is NOT in our price range if we want to live comfortably if you actually do the math and look at your payments. Pretty much, you pay your mortgage/taxes then eat $0.10 noodles for breakfast, lunch and dinner for the next 30 years if you buy at the range they suggest (and push, because they get bigger commission on the deal).

That is the problem with these mortgages in my view. Too many people will think "Well, the financial guy says I can do this loan and pay it off easily, I guess I should get that expensive house on the river instead of the modest house in the nice neighborhood."

Pathetic.

And you did a good thing, but since the bank down the street gave him the loan, then that bank is part of the problem.

Originally Posted by CivilWars

I worked for Wells Fargo during much of the housing boom. I would personally educate customers on why they should not take out a home equity loan on a house they already could not afford. In return for my kindness they would go to the bank or mortgage company down the street and get the exact same loan that I just explained to them would bankrupt them. The government is in for big trouble if they try to ban stupid.

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

+2

I agree as well but I must emphasize that the greedy capitalist can do much more damage than the average joe because the greedy capitalist allows mr average joe to do so. The housing market is the perfect example; YES, people shouldn't have been taking out mortgages on something they can't afford but guess what, the greedy capitalists approved them. All of this would have been prevented if the greedy capitalists had denied these loans in the first place.

Like I said before, Dems believe people are inherintely stupid, that's why they like to increase regulations to keep greedy capitalists from taking advantage of the average DUMB american who doesn't know that his 2k monthly check won't pay for a 3k monthly mortgage.