I got your torture right here.

**~~hawgballs~~** · 04-23-09, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

You don't have to like it or understand it. Your not the one that is performing such acts. To act shocked about it happening is astonding to me. I firmly believe we have been to nice for far to long. What good is the geneva convention or any other documents if the only people following them is us. You can wipe your ass with those papers because thats what they are worth in the real world.

I hate to say it, god, but this is the most ignorant fucking drivel I have seen you post as of yet...... I mean it doesn't quite surprise me that you were to post something short-sighted and ......well,...... ignorant, but it is worth noting that this is the most absurd, especially coming from a serviceman. I hate to go back to the pogue thing again, but how many POW's in American history were air ordinancemen? I would probably guess, less than 0.1 percent, if any. So this has to be your excuse for being so shortsighted as to dismiss the importance of Geneva Convention. Because as a grunt, I know that those papers are quite relevant.

Do you think that "The War on Terror" is going to be the only conflict we'll ever have again? Are you so short-sighted to think that the USA will never see a conventional war ever again? (which would surprise me, because just about everytime there is a even remotely possible chance that US could get into a conflict with anyone, your answer has been to go to war)

That convention provides somewhat of a guarantee that our servicemen, if ever captured by the enemy (if said enemy were party to the convention and signed the agreements)that they would be treated humanely and afforded certain rights. And just because the"terrorists" don't abide by society norms, does not excuse us from setting the example of how a civilized society acts. That, and there is what is called "moral high-ground" that is conceded completely when we dismiss convention articles as "paper to wipe our asses with". I mean even a lowly old grunt, like myself can understand that........in fact it was pounded into our head daily, that the Geneva conventions were always to be upheld, for our benefit as well as theirs. Maybe because you didn't have to patrol, or actually have dealings with anyone other than pilots and crew chiefs, that the importance of the Geneva conventions weren't stressed so much by you or your unit, but where I came from, it was the letter of the law.

And to say that you "believe we have been to nice for far to long" as an excuse to torture people, is as chickenshit as it comes.

Oh, by the way, just because the chinese invented it doesn't mean that when we use it, we aren't in the wrong. I find it funny that actually tried to justify our using these techniques, by basically saying "well we didn't invent it".

By the way we imprisoned Japanese officers as war criminals for torturing American and Allied soldiers for torture, "The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110201170.html

But hey......let it rip......sounds tough......stupid, ignorant........but tough nonetheless.

**dex71** · 04-23-09, 06:01 PM

I guess it comes down to the definition of torture. What is it specifically? There must be different levels. Keeping some one awake is much differant than beating the shit out of a guy,pouring salt in his wounds,then running him over with an SUV. I remember the Iranian hostages when I was younger...they were taken out,blindfolded,and lined up againsed a wall.They would then put a firing squad in front of them,and make them listen as the hammers fall on to empty chambers. They were not harmed,but tortured none the less.

I guess I will specifically ask Hawg....What do you think is torture? How far should we be able to go,if we know American lives are on the line? They talk of percentages,and ratios of truth,but the fact is that we have recieved good intelligence,and saved American lives with waterboarding...I would guess that you oppose it,so,what should we do instead?

FTR...I'm not asking you,so I can stir some kind of argument...I really am interested in what your views on it are.

**Red_Lizard2** · 04-23-09, 06:12 PM

i like how some people think because we torture mohammed he is going to give us all the information we want to know, yay! america saved!!!

2 things, first you torture someone they will just bullshit you to get you to stop, if they know something or not. second, why would terrorist who would blow themselves up for their god, give a shit if you torture them? Sure it sucks but you think they are going to crack because you torture them?

**dex71** · 04-23-09, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Red_Lizard2

i like how some people think because we torture mohammed he is going to give us all the information we want to know, yay! america saved!!!

2 things, first you torture someone they will just bullshit you to get you to stop, if they know something or not. second, why would terrorist who would blow themselves up for their god, give a shit if you torture them? Sure it sucks but you think they are going to crack because you torture them?

But you are wrong....we have had some success from waterboarding...lives have been saved...the question is Did we need to go that far? How far should we go? Does the end justify the means?

It's silly to say that after thousands of years of torture doesn't work. If it didn't,no one would do it. Fact is that it works....but at what price?

**-Sauso-** · 04-23-09, 06:34 PM

a fair share of these " suspected terrorist" are just that....suspected...

so torturing someone to save the lives of thousands of people is pretty much bull shit when you go on hunches

" oh you look like you could be a terrorist, come with us"

3 months later....

" well i guess he was telling the truth, he didn't know anything"

" next !!! "

**Red_Lizard2** · 04-23-09, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by dex71

Originally Posted by Red_Lizard2

i like how some people think because we torture mohammed he is going to give us all the information we want to know, yay! america saved!!!

2 things, first you torture someone they will just bullshit you to get you to stop, if they know something or not. second, why would terrorist who would blow themselves up for their god, give a shit if you torture them? Sure it sucks but you think they are going to crack because you torture them?

But you are wrong....we have had some success from waterboarding...lives have been saved...the question is Did we need to go that far? How far should we go? Does the end justify the means?

It's silly to say that after thousands of years of torture doesn't work. If it didn't,no one would do it. Fact is that it works....but at what price?

oh you mean like that story that "omg it worked because this dude told us about this attack on L.A. and..." Yeah will i could write a freaking novel about how guys are going to hijack planes and fly them into buildings in chicago for example. Does that make it true? hell no. Could someone really be planning it? sure but it doesn't mean i gave you real information.

How about we tell about the amount of times things we've been told were false? i bet there would be 1000s of bullshit stories.

Why do people still do it, if it doesn't work? simple because no-one said you don't get information, just you get bullshit information. Just generally you believe the bullshit because "we have nothing else." Doesn't mean it works, just that you want to justify it to yourself that "it did"

**dex71** · 04-23-09, 06:55 PM

So you are saying that it doesn't work...has never worked. Then why have people been doing it for thousands of years? Fact is...it works.

Now...go back and carefully re-read the above posts...cuz it is obvious you haven't.

**Red_Lizard2** · 04-23-09, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by dex71

So you are saying that it doesn't work...has never worked. Then why have people been doing it for thousands of years? Fact is...it works.

Now...go back and carefully re-read the above posts...cuz it is obvious you haven't.

you mean the above posts that have nothing to do with if it works, oh okay i'll get right on that

.

Depends on how you justify "working." Punkbuster "works" in the sense it stops cheating, but really doesn't stop cheating outside of the few apparent, mostly it just kicks and bans people for bullshit. Thus like torture it depends on what "working" is to you. If getting information is "working" then yeah it does, but it doesn't give you any actual information, just spews out bullshit. Sure one might end up being true but likelyhood isn't because they "knew" as much as they spewed out random shit and it happened to be true.

If it works, don't you think the USA security would be compromised much more then it is right now? Or do only the "bad guys" tell secrets?

**dex71** · 04-23-09, 07:20 PM

Jebus you're thick....

Of course you are going to get a bunch of bs....THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is...torture does work...has worked...and always will work. That is why people have done it for thousands of years,and will be doing it thousands of years from now. That isn't even an intelligent debate. We don't need the full story on what might happen,but a small piece of the puzzle (phone #,awknowledgement of knowing some one, names in a terror cell....any small piece) to save lives.

The question was...and I'll repeat it for you since you don't seem to get it....How far should we go? What EXACTLY is torture? Look at the above examples in my first post...there are obviously different levels...ranging from forced listening of Kanye West records...all the way to beheading with dull machetes.

WHAT IS TORTURE? HOW DO YOU DEFINE IT? HOW FAR SHOULD WE GO WITH IT IF WE KNOW WE CAN SAVE SOME LIVES WITH IT?

**Red_Lizard2** · 04-23-09, 07:57 PM

yet its funny how so few people, including experts believe it work, so it must work

. Hell theres are article on the washington post where someone looked through how effective torture was in the past and showed how it does little to help.

And last i checked all the thread was about was the video of the UAE tortures, i didn't see anything saying HOW FAR, the question wasn't posted How far should we go? All it is, is a thread on torture. People can DECIDE what they want to take from it, and i take from it that torture doesn't work. YOU THINK its about what YOU THINK its about.