Universal Health Care

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by HuntnJade

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I hate to say it but it is as easy as
If someone's hungry what serves them better giving them a meal or teaching them how to fish.

Can't fish when you are dead.

Who is going to teach them?

Oh PLEASE like no one has ever heard stay in school. Go become a lawyer or a doctor anytime while they were growing up. Ignorance is no excuse. They chose not to continue. They chose there position in life. Everything that has happened in one way shape or form has been a choice. They chose badly.

You can choose to not take another breath if you are determined enough to do it. Everything is a choice. You can come up with whatever you want at some point in time there was a choice made that put them where they are.

You do not have to be college educated to get a decent job with benefits... go drive a UPS truck, be a cashier at Walmart, go be a tradesman plumber, electrician, mechanic- most will train you as you work.... there ARE jobs that are achievable to pretty much EVERYBODY.

Really my response was kinda sarcasm to Death.

Not all those jobs give health insurance, depending on where you live there are a lot of them where you can either eat or have health insurance. Gotta have money to do most things.

Driving health insurance costs down would help, but I am not knowledgeable enough to know or sit and figure out how.

Walmart and UPS both have health benefits ALWAYS. Most large grocery store chains do. If you get into a reputable larger construction co. they do. Stop giving me the food on the table malarky.. we are all sitting here on computers suped up enough to play games, we have games, we see movies, have cell phones, internet, drive cars... all those things take money. If you put it on your "cannot live without" list- you will afford it. You will find the job that has the benefits. You might not like it as much as the other job but you would decide to take the one with benefits cause you couldn't live without 'em. When you have cut every single luxury item and have seriously looked for a job WITH BENEFITS and cannot find one at all - and still cannot afford health care we will chat. And who ever said it was a basic projection of how we see our fellow man... I completely agree. I have many personal experience/first hand accounts that support the reasons why I feel the way I do. I have worked in doctors offices and medical billing. I am sure there are legitimate cases of need in this world but I would not even put the percentage close to half of what we pay for currently. I am Texan and I can only speak for Texans but I have seen, first hand- the waste, greed, exploitation, and abuse of our medicaid, food stamps, and low cost health care. It is shameful and sad and not really helping anyone because these people are crippled by handouts more than they are helped. They never learn to survive without it they just get better at getting everything they can...
Am I heartless- may be. Am I cynical-yep. Am I speaking from truth and my personal experience- absolutely. Do I have a right to be angry about the things I have seen- YES! Can I stop giving my money to these people- NOPE.

**-Sauso-** · 05-08-09, 02:20 PM

lol thats why im here for entertainment

and that is why these forums are entertaining...if we all agreed on everything all the time..what fun is that?..

it doesn't NEED to be fun, but we wall WANT it to be fun. 8)

**Blakeman** · 05-08-09, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

The reason i didn't pick up on what your sarcasim was I am a tradesmen and make more in a year than many people. I think you underestimate what tradesmen make. Sure the first couple years suck while you learn the trade but after that the only limit for earnings is how much work your willing to do.

That all depends on the trade and your location. My father and his father before him have had their own painting and sandblasting company, it has gone up and down depending on the local economy. When the toyota plant was built here and they got the contract to sandblast some large chemical tanks it was excellent. There have been times when I was the only employee besides my father because we couldn't afford anyone else to hire on because jobs were scarce overall.

I ate ramen noodles and paid for my health insurance. I never used my insurance besides checkups (thankfully).

Now I am on my wife's health plan. I stay at home with the kids so they aren't raised by strangers. I get the 'wants' like anyone else (man I would love a 4x4 truck) but it isn't in the bills.

I know there are folks out there trying to make themselves better and forgo health insurance to pay for school. I know of folks eating ramen noodles because they have arthritis and have to pay for the meds.

I think we can all agree that something has to be done, it's just the 'what' where folks bicker. If we bicker too long then it might be decided for us, not by us. That would be a shame.

Jade - I understand where you are coming from, but what is the solution then? Do we just sit here and not change anything? There are good folks getting screwed that can't afford it just as much as folks like us that can afford health care.

**deathgodusmc** · 05-08-09, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by -Sauso-

lol thats why im here for entertainment

and that is why these forums are entertaining...if we all agreed on everything all the time..what fun is that?..

it doesn't NEED to be fun, but we wall WANT it to be fun. 8)

Yeah sometimes i have to take a harder stance than what i feel will meet the needs but then it wouldn't be fun. Wheres the hell hawg he supposed to be on the other side of the table argueing with me. Now that it over i guess i can give you guys this little bit of info attention to details gentlemen.

Main Entry: 1need
Pronunciation: \?n?d\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ned, from Old English n?ed, n?d; akin to Old High German n?t distress, need, Old Prussian nautin need
Date: before 12th century
1: necessary duty : obligation
2 a: a lack of something requisite, desirable, or useful b: a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism
3: a condition requiring supply or relief
4: lack of the means of subsistence : poverty

**sprite** · 05-08-09, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

And again, as with those tables I posted, our surrent system costs us MORE as a percent than the countries that have public health care. You say you don't want to pay more for them, but according to the empirical evidence you pay more with our current system. The countries with public health care pay less per pserson AND less as a percentage of the national budget on health care. So that argument: I don't want to pay more for them, is simply not valid according to the evidence.

Once again you have not addressed the difference in lifestyles that cause Americans to be more unhealthy (obesity causes a lot to be spent on health care). The issues at stake are not black and white. There is absolutely no reason to believe that health care spending would actually go down with government control unless the government rations health care. Please tell me now the government will cut spending on health care under a socialist program, instead of just saying other countries with such a system spend less. Your argument is flawed and you have not shown HOW this will happen. Americans are unhealthy, we have to find preventative ways to address that root issue. Look at obesity rates by country: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...health-obesity Most of the socialized medicine systems do not even have half the obesity rate we see in this country. Socialized medicine will not fix this growing problem, which is a major cause of the higher health care spending in the US.

And when in the course of history did health become a right of the people?

If I have to pay for other peoples health care, shouldn't I be able to dictate the choices they make? No one should be allowed to make unhealthy choices such as smoking, eating too much fast food, drinking, etc. Why? Because we have to supply health to the people right? Let's just take away more personal liberties and not allow people to make their own judgments. That is what socialized medicine is saying. People have the right to make healthy or unhealthy choices, not a right to health. The difference here is that it puts responsibility and accountability into individuals, and not on society. You are not punished if your neighbor chooses to have a low-income job, eat cheesecake for every meal, and smoke under the current privatized system. However, under a socialized system you would have to pay for them to receive care for the decisions they made. How is this fair?

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Saint_Chachi

Healthcare isn't a want - it is a need. A periodical need, but a need none the less. The fact that the US is the only major industrialized nation that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all it's citizens is shameful. It really is.

When I was an EMT I went to a call to standby with the fire department for a structure fire. We get on scene, and find out a neighbor ran into a burning house because the someone told him a kid was inside. So, this guy runs in, clears the house, but luckily the kid had went out the back door and was safe. However, this guy took in a ton of smoke, and was showing signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. He was refusing medical care because he had no insurance (he was a welder for a small shop), and my partner was tired of trying to convince him to go to the hospital. He kept asking to sign an AMA waiver so we'd just leave.

So, I pulled him to the side and told him "Sir, you've done an incredibly brave thing today. You have my deepest respect for that. Now do the smart thing and get to the hospital before that brave thing is the last thing you ever do." I shook his hand, loaded him up, and we got him to the hospital. He wasn't so bad as to need hyperbaric oxygen, but the Doc said it was close.

I truly believe in the adage that it's better to lay down your life for friend than to lay it down in vain. However, if he would've refused treatment, and died simply because he didn't have health insurance that life would have been laid down in vain despite his previous act of courage.

This man truly did not want to go. He needed to go to ensure is very existence. We call ourselves the land of the free and the home of the brave - but when the brave die because they don't have health insurance who will be left? Cowards with coverage.

It is a great story and in your experience this guy did a great thing so he deserved care. He was a good man and you are apparently a good hearted man. The problem I have with this story is that in your estimation good character= automatic deserved health care. The point I would make is that it is our will to have health care vs. our will to have other things that should be factored into that equation. Without looking at this guys financial portfolio you cannot possibly know that this guy could not afford health care insurance or just decided he didn't care to pay for that and would rather have 400 channels of cable TV. This is why this is a matter of cost and availability not character and rights, in my opinion.

**SJA** · 05-08-09, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by SJA

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

It does not say supply welfare.

Nope it doesn't it says promote. If there is a way to promote it or fix it where everyone can at least get basic coverage then I'm all for that over a socialized system run by the fed. So far all I see is "No Socialized health care" or the opposite, nobody is trying anything to fix the current system so it is affordable to everyone.

The fix might happen through the back end by making it easier to pay for school to become a doctor or through deregulating some of the pharmaceutical business.

I do believe everyone has a right to live healthy and to be able to see a doctor if they are in pain or their life is in danger. I also think that if we can do it through the free market capitalist system then lets do it, but not at the expense of going "Fuck it, you are poor. Go ahead and die already."

There is a balance somewhere and it doesn't have to be socialized medicine but it should be somewhere where everyone can at least get basic things done.

Thats something most fiscal conservatives can get behind. I really dont see a one size fits all solution here, states at a minimum should be able to control how they handle health care. There is already some precedent for what we are talking about with providing everyone with health care without providing more doctors for the increase in patients.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas..._climb/?page=1

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-ame...1128705-1.html

ER visits are climbing because people cant get to their regular doctor anymore. So instead of this utopian idea that providing health insurance for everyone will make everyone healthier, people are getting worse off because they dont get preventive care (wait is too long), they wind up in the ER for simple things that escalated because there really is no proactive care, just reactive. Something that works in Canada doesnt necessarily mean it will work here, things just dont scale the same. Canada's biggest metro area is Ontario, with a population of 12 mil (2006), thats smaller than Tallahassee FL with a pop of 18 Mil and roughly equal to Springfield IL. The NY and LA metro areas combined are bigger than the entire population of Canada. Two cities. As of 2007 Canada had one doctor for every 470 patients. For us to equal that we would need almost 79000 primary care doctors in NY and LA alone, and 470,000 primary care doctors nationwide.

I think at a minimum whatever plan we go with has to address that problem before doling out insurance to everyone just to make us all suffer equally. Get the doctors in place, then let states dictate their coverages with minimal guidelines from the fed.

Thank you for that post, it seems my fingers can't type and get across what I am thinking today. Maybe I need to go see a doctor.

Tallahassee has 18 million people? Are you sure? Or does Florida have 18 million?

That right there kills that post, next.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water, I did fuck up on the smaller metro area pops, but the error cut both ways, and the LA/NY thing still stands. After reading the charts correctly, the US has 12 metro areas with 5 million people or more, Canada has one. Canada has only 6 cities with a pop over 1 mil, the US has 51. The doctor numbers dont change either.

I didnt take the time to read the charts properly, clicked metro areas and for some reason they showed state pops along with the metro pops.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Canada-Metro.html
http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-CombMetro.html

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 02:35 PM

[quote=sprite ]

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

And when in the course of history did health become a right of the people?

If I have to pay for other peoples health care, shouldn't I be able to dictate the choices they make? No one should be allowed to make unhealthy choices such as smoking, eating too much fast food, drinking, etc. Why? Because we have to supply health to the people right? Let's just take away more personal liberties and not allow people to make their own judgments. That is what socialized medicine is saying. People have the right to make healthy or unhealthy choices, not a right to health. The difference here is that it puts responsibility and accountability into individuals, and not on society. You are not punished if your neighbor chooses to have a low-income job, eat cheesecake for every meal, and smoke under the current privatized system. However, under a socialized system you would have to pay for them to receive care for the decisions they made. How is this fair?

Beautiful. Who are you?

**Blakeman** · 05-08-09, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by HuntnJade

Originally Posted by Saint_Chachi

Healthcare isn't a want - it is a need. A periodical need, but a need none the less. The fact that the US is the only major industrialized nation that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all it's citizens is shameful. It really is.

When I was an EMT I went to a call to standby with the fire department for a structure fire. We get on scene, and find out a neighbor ran into a burning house because the someone told him a kid was inside. So, this guy runs in, clears the house, but luckily the kid had went out the back door and was safe. However, this guy took in a ton of smoke, and was showing signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. He was refusing medical care because he had no insurance (he was a welder for a small shop), and my partner was tired of trying to convince him to go to the hospital. He kept asking to sign an AMA waiver so we'd just leave.

So, I pulled him to the side and told him "Sir, you've done an incredibly brave thing today. You have my deepest respect for that. Now do the smart thing and get to the hospital before that brave thing is the last thing you ever do." I shook his hand, loaded him up, and we got him to the hospital. He wasn't so bad as to need hyperbaric oxygen, but the Doc said it was close.

I truly believe in the adage that it's better to lay down your life for friend than to lay it down in vain. However, if he would've refused treatment, and died simply because he didn't have health insurance that life would have been laid down in vain despite his previous act of courage.

This man truly did not want to go. He needed to go to ensure is very existence. We call ourselves the land of the free and the home of the brave - but when the brave die because they don't have health insurance who will be left? Cowards with coverage.

It is a great story and in your experience this guy did a great thing so he deserved care. He was a good man and you are apparently a good hearted man. The problem I have with this story is that in your estimation good character= automatic deserved health care. The point I would make is that it is our will to have health care vs. our will to have other things that should be factored into that equation. Without looking at this guys financial portfolio you cannot possibly know that this guy could not afford health care insurance or just decided he didn't care to pay for that and would rather have 400 channels of cable TV. This is why this is a matter of cost and availability not character and rights, in my opinion.

So you do agree that there has to be basic health care that is available at a cost that is affordable even for folks that don't make a whole lot of money?

If so then the question is how to make it viable for companies to offer, otherwise it will never happen.

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 02:54 PM

[quote=Blakeman ]

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Jade - I understand where you are coming from, but what is the solution then? Do we just sit here and not change anything? There are good folks getting screwed that can't afford it just as much as folks like us that can afford health care.

I have no answer for that. As always I want to find the answer and make it all right but in this world if you do anything to right one problem you usually just create a new one. I have often wondered why we don't simply cut out the middle man altogether... end health insurance cold turkey. Health insurance has caused huge spikes in health care cost... and for what? More paperwork, dictating prices to doctors while raping us on premiums, saying who can get what test when... we are all fools to let government step into this huge money making racket rather than just squash it and go back to paying our doctors for their services at reasonable rates. (I have been to MANY doctors who will reduce their rates dramatically if you will agree to not make them file on your insurance.) What says you guys to that one?