Universal Health Care

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by HuntnJade

Originally Posted by Saint_Chachi

Healthcare isn't a want - it is a need. A periodical need, but a need none the less. The fact that the US is the only major industrialized nation that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all it's citizens is shameful. It really is.

When I was an EMT I went to a call to standby with the fire department for a structure fire. We get on scene, and find out a neighbor ran into a burning house because the someone told him a kid was inside. So, this guy runs in, clears the house, but luckily the kid had went out the back door and was safe. However, this guy took in a ton of smoke, and was showing signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. He was refusing medical care because he had no insurance (he was a welder for a small shop), and my partner was tired of trying to convince him to go to the hospital. He kept asking to sign an AMA waiver so we'd just leave.

So, I pulled him to the side and told him "Sir, you've done an incredibly brave thing today. You have my deepest respect for that. Now do the smart thing and get to the hospital before that brave thing is the last thing you ever do." I shook his hand, loaded him up, and we got him to the hospital. He wasn't so bad as to need hyperbaric oxygen, but the Doc said it was close.

I truly believe in the adage that it's better to lay down your life for friend than to lay it down in vain. However, if he would've refused treatment, and died simply because he didn't have health insurance that life would have been laid down in vain despite his previous act of courage.

This man truly did not want to go. He needed to go to ensure is very existence. We call ourselves the land of the free and the home of the brave - but when the brave die because they don't have health insurance who will be left? Cowards with coverage.

It is a great story and in your experience this guy did a great thing so he deserved care. He was a good man and you are apparently a good hearted man. The problem I have with this story is that in your estimation good character= automatic deserved health care. The point I would make is that it is our will to have health care vs. our will to have other things that should be factored into that equation. Without looking at this guys financial portfolio you cannot possibly know that this guy could not afford health care insurance or just decided he didn't care to pay for that and would rather have 400 channels of cable TV. This is why this is a matter of cost and availability not character and rights, in my opinion.

So you do agree that there has to be basic health care that is available at a cost that is affordable even for folks that don't make a whole lot of money?

If so then the question is how to make it viable for companies to offer, otherwise it will never happen.

Look guys, I was 23 and a single parent. My ex was a deadbeat jerk and I was left to care for my 2 year old son... did we go without insurance- NO. I had a neat little job at a doctors office. It was pestigious, and I liked it but I had no healthcare for my son. So what did I do- what I HAD to do- I went and got a job at the local Brookshires grocery store, got my benefits, and ended up all the better for it. (Actually ended up making better money.) Did I want to trade my doctors office job for cashier- um, no. Pride is a bitch but I did it and am proud to be able to look back and say that I did it. I would rather have been a cashier with benefits for my son than a optician with medicaid. But, thats just me. It is out there and it is affordable if you just look for it.

**SapiensErus** · 05-08-09, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Originally Posted by -Sauso-

so ...
why help anyone ?

-Why should i pay to help Military Vets? i didn't ask them to go fight a war.
-Why should i pay for other children to attend public school?
-Why should i pay to help support battered women?...i never hit you.

health is a need...not a want...

exactly Blakeman.....Children are what matter..and that is why EVERYONE should be taken care off..

This makes perfect sence let see.
1 Your right you didn't ask anyone to go fight a war but you do get the luxary to sit around doing this because they did.
2 Because you already stated that children are different than adults
3 When did we start paying directly from our salaries to a battered woman fund

Health care is not a need it is a want. You don't have to go see a doctor when you are sick you want to. It isn't on the same page as breathing, eating, and drinking those are needs. Need is a word way over used by society as a whole. You don't need a hair cut you want one. You don't need to get a new car you want to.

So if you have cancer you don't need to a doctor? What about a broken leg?

No you don't bones heal even when not in the right place. May not look right may even be painful afterwards but no you do not need to go. You may want to in fact it's probaly a good idea to go but no it isn't a need.

Cancer there's a joke in itself. I don't mean the getting it part. You get treatment get more years out of your life but no still isn't a need. If you WANT to live longer than yes you may WANT to go to the doctor for treatment.

By this logic we have NO rights whatsoever, only needs. Police, safety, roads, etc.

So you advocate we live like animals? The strong survive and all that. Only those who can make/collect their own resources should have them? No police, no fire department, no military... by the very logic you are stating no one has a right to any of that...they are all wants.

That is not a world I would want to live in. We have worked for tens of thousands of years to move beyond that. I think in a society as advanced as ours, everyone has a right to safety, including wellness of body and mind.

**SapiensErus** · 05-08-09, 03:17 PM

The simple fact is, we are the only industrialized country still using a marketized healthcare system. Why? Because a few people have it in their interest to because they make gobs of money.

We have police, firefighters, soldiers, etc. Doctors belong on that list also. The reason it is viewed as different is because a few people have invested billions of dollars in making believe healthcare is somehow different than other protective services.

So, if you are not for public healthcare, why do you think it is OK to have fire departments, police and other safety services? Can you tell me why those services should be provided but health care should not? What benefit is there in separating them?

**Blakeman** · 05-08-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

The simple fact is, we are the only industrialized country still using a marketized healthcare system. Why? Because a few people have it in their interest to because they make gobs of money.

We have police, firefighters, soldiers, etc. Doctors belong on that list also. The reason it is viewed as different is because a few people have invested billions of dollars in making believe healthcare is somehow different than other protective services.

So, if you are not for public healthcare, why do you think it is OK to have fire departments, police and other safety services? Can you tell me why those services should be provided but health care should not? What benefit is there in separating them?

It all comes down to the fact that those services cannot be abused by the individual and are based upon an overall need, not an individual need.

I still think there can be something done so that health care costs don't screw us over and can be afforded without having to decide to pay for rent or pay for medical bills.

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 03:39 PM

I wonder... what do the doctors out there think of this. I may have to tap into some of my old contacts and see what I can dig up by way of opinion on this. Do they feel they stand to gain or lose from this whole thing. I know insurance was a serious problem to the many doctors I worked for...paperwork and delays in getting paid are 2 of the huge issues when dealing with insurance. I also know that many times the amount you pay a doctor is more than the amount you would have without the insurance companies set rates and only a really honest doctor will tell you their non-insurance fee if it was lower. (The same is true at the pharmacy, sometimes your set co-pay is far more than the actual cost of the RX.)

There is much to consider in this whole thing and I just hope we do not screw this one up- however it turns out. For the Canadian's here, Do you guys still have no fault car insurance? I was intrigued by that... I dated a guy from Canada for a while and he talked about yall's health care and car insurance and well, lots of stuff Canadian. He packed it up and moved back so I guess he really did like their system better

**sprite** · 05-08-09, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

So, if you are not for public healthcare, why do you think it is OK to have fire departments, police and other safety services? Can you tell me why those services should be provided but health care should not? What benefit is there in separating them?

Because, as anyone that has taken a macro-economics course knows, these are services that private industries cannot provide. Clearly, health care can be privatized and it has worked in our country for years. There is a reason why people come to this country for health care services they cannot get in their own country (by the way, those services count towards our health care spending). People do not have the right to police, they have a right to life and property. Police are there to ensure that right is being protected. Fireman too are there to protect property. Soldiers are also there to protect our freedoms and our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

As I said earlier, health is not a right. The ability, and freedom, to make decisions for ourselves is a right we all have. We can choose whether we want to life a healthy or unhealthy lifestyle. We can choose what we want to purchase with our money. Should we have a new government service that tells you at McDonalds that you're eating too much fast food?

The problem with what your saying soy is that someone's health is a large product of their lifestyle. We believe in this country that someone can live their life in the manner they seem best fit as long as they do not impede the rights of others. If someone chooses to smoke, that is their choice. However, I do not want to pay for their lung cancer treatments later in life because of their choice. If someone chooses to eat fast food for every meal and never exercise, that is their choice. However, I do not want to pay for their blood pressure medicine and bypass surgeries later in life.

Its not that I don't want to help the unfortunate, believe me I do. But socialized medicine is not the answer. I believe that there are too many problems with socialized medicine. A lot of people that have poor health do because of their lifestyle choices. Isn't education the key to keeping these people healthy? What about socialized medicine will educate people and teach them how to make healthy choices? You preach about how we are spending "too much" money on health care in this country, yet you offer no solutions. Prevention is the way to keep health care costs down, but that is done through education. Why are we not trying to create programs that better educate the public about health care issues? Instead, we try to do a quick fix and just say everyone needs health care access. That doesn't address the root issues at the heart of the problem. Is our current system perfect? No. But that does not mean we cannot work to fix it without socializing medicine.

**HuntnJade** · 05-08-09, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by sprite

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

So, if you are not for public healthcare, why do you think it is OK to have fire departments, police and other safety services? Can you tell me why those services should be provided but health care should not? What benefit is there in separating them?

Because, as anyone that has taken a macro-economics course knows, these are services that private industries cannot provide. Clearly, health care can be privatized and it has worked in our country for years. There is a reason why people come to this country for health care services they cannot get in their own country (by the way, those services count towards our health care spending). People do not have the right to police, they have a right to life and property. Police are there to ensure that right is being protected. Fireman too are there to protect property. Soldiers are also there to protect our freedoms and our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

As I said earlier, health is not a right. The ability, and freedom, to make decisions for ourselves is a right we all have. We can choose whether we want to life a healthy or unhealthy lifestyle. We can choose what we want to purchase with our money. Should we have a new government service that tells you at McDonalds that you're eating too much fast food?

The problem with what your saying soy is that someone's health is a large product of their lifestyle. We believe in this country that someone can live their life in the manner they seem best fit as long as they do not impede the rights of others. If someone chooses to smoke, that is their choice. However, I do not want to pay for their lung cancer treatments later in life because of their choice. If someone chooses to eat fast food for every meal and never exercise, that is their choice. However, I do not want to pay for their blood pressure medicine and bypass surgeries later in life.

Its not that I don't want to help the unfortunate, believe me I do. But socialized medicine is not the answer. I believe that there are too many problems with socialized medicine. A lot of people that have poor health do because of their lifestyle choices. Isn't education the key to keeping these people healthy? What about socialized medicine will educate people and teach them how to make healthy choices? You preach about how we are spending "too much" money on health care in this country, yet you offer no solutions. Prevention is the way to keep health care costs down, but that is done through education. Why are we not trying to create programs that better educate the public about health care issues? Instead, we try to do a quick fix and just say everyone needs health care access. That doesn't address the root issues at the heart of the problem. Is our current system perfect? No. But that does not mean we cannot work to fix it without socializing medicine.

Aww... and we part ways... I do not believe in education for better health. Every idiot knows health risks involved with smoking, fatty foods ect. We don't care and no amount of "education" is going to change that. Take a poll out on the street--- THEY KNOW. They don't care!

**SJA** · 05-08-09, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

The simple fact is, we are the only industrialized country still using a marketized healthcare system. Why? Because a few people have it in their interest to because they make gobs of money.

We have police, firefighters, soldiers, etc. Doctors belong on that list also. The reason it is viewed as different is because a few people have invested billions of dollars in making believe healthcare is somehow different than other protective services.

So, if you are not for public healthcare, why do you think it is OK to have fire departments, police and other safety services? Can you tell me why those services should be provided but health care should not? What benefit is there in separating them?

Why do you keep mixing federal, state, and city controlled programs? There is no federal police, there is no federal fire department. If you live in a rural area you dont have the "right" to fire coverage, thats why there are so many volunteer fire fighting services in the sticks. Your "right" to police services could be a county sheriff thats 75 miles away. Not just bumpkins with 100 miles between each home are the ones dealing with this, many small towns with pops in the 100s deal with those issues. As someone already stated, none of those other "rights" are preventive, they are reactive, emergency services. Much like the ER, where you dont need insurance to receive emergency care.

This is why any solution should be state, maybe even city driven, there isnt a solution at the federal level that wont screw a big part of the country.

**Blakeman** · 05-08-09, 06:18 PM

Just as a conversation piece, the Libertarian Party view on Health Care. Dunno if I agree with it all, but it makes some sense to me.

------------------

Healthcare
Making Healthcare Safe and Affordable

As recently as the 1960s, low-cost health insurance was available to virtually everyone in America - including people with existing medical problems. Doctors made house calls. A hospital stay cost only a few days' pay. Charity hospitals were available to take care of families who could not afford to pay for healthcare.

Since then the federal government has increasingly intervened through Medicare, Medicaid, the HMO Act and tens of thousands of regulations on doctors, hospitals and health-insurance companies.
Today, more than 50 percent of all healthcare dollars are spent by the government.

Health insurance costs are skyrocketing. Government health programs are heading for bankruptcy. Politicians continue to pile on the regulations.

The Libertarian Party knows the only healthcare reforms that will make a real difference are those that draw on the strength of the free market.

The Libertarian Party will work towards the following:
1. Establish Medical Saving Accounts.

Under this program, you could deposit tax-free money into a Medical Savings Account (MSA). Whenever you need the money to pay medical bills, you will be able to withdraw it. For individuals without an MSA, the Libertarian Party will work to make all healthcare expenditures 100 percent tax deductible.
2. Deregulate the healthcare industry.

We should repeal all government policies that increase health costs and decrease the availability of medical services. For example, every state has laws that mandate coverage of specific disabilities and diseases. These laws reduce consumer choice and increase the cost of health insurance. By making insurance more expensive, mandated benefits increase the number of uninsured American workers.
3. Remove barriers to safe, affordable medicines.

We should replace harmful government agencies like the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) with more agile, free-market alternatives. The mission of the FDA is to protect us from unsafe medicines. In fact, the FDA has driven up healthcare costs and deprived millions of Americans of much-needed treatments. For example, during a 10-year delay in approving Propanolol Propranolol (a heart medication for treating angina and hypertension), approximately 100,000 people died who could have been treated with this lifesaving drug. Bureaucratic roadblocks kill sick Americans.