Obama National Debt

**DeusInnomen** · 09-21-09, 03:55 PM

To some extent, taxes are a necessary evil. There's a lot of things that are better run at the government level than other things, such as civil services like police and fire, and I'm one of those folks who thinks there should be nationalized health care, but that's a debate for another time and not here.

The real issue is that they've gotten too bloody greedy with taxes, worse in some states than others. (Goddamn Cook County, Illinois....) I can't even count the amount of taxes I pay on every dollar I earn versus what it's worth in raw goods or services after the local, state and federal government strip their "share" of it. Sure, not everyone is going to earn as much as others, and a lot of the support programs like Welfare have a purpose but they're so badly abused and mismanaged that their purpose is lost. Hell, folks figured out a long, long time ago how to milk that system without looking for work and earning their keep.

It's sad, really: people are demonized for being hugely successful, and people are demonized for being lazy and poor. We all put way too much effort into giving a shit about everybody else's heaven and hell, I just want to earn my salary and raise my family and help my friends achieve their goals. But, it's pretty clear I can't just ignore the world around me, cause it's descending into chaos and anger the longer things go on. I have a philosophy I live by: in all things, achieve balance. The government should follow the same advice.

**DeusInnomen** · 09-21-09, 03:56 PM

... wait a minute, what the fuck am I doing debating/discussing politics in Off the Servers? Don't I know better? *facepalm*

**Xoria** · 09-21-09, 04:10 PM

I agree with parts of pretty much everything everyone has said. The polarization happens over the hows and details.
I am against the destruction of the middle class that has been happening for years, especially the last decade or so. I am against our inability, no it's stronger than that, it's a deliberate choice they made, to not protect our country from the one-way abuses in foreign trade policy, that gutted our ability to keep jobs in America. I am against our unwillingness to fix our rotting and collapsing infrastructure, because it's just too expensive and it will involve either drastic cuts or tax increases, so better to leave it to the next guy, or just pay out settlements when people die. I am against the failing education system, lobbies, corruption and the fact that we, the greatest nation in the world, with the most to offer, can't get our act together on the things that will enable us to succeed and thrive into the future.

What I am for, is rational discourse. The kind that I most often can find here, before a couple of the loonies start screaming. I am for making the tough choices, but making sure that they are fair and just choices. I am for doing today what we cannot wait anymore to do, be it health care, campaign finance reform, etc. I am for educated choices, for people to stop being apathetic, to stop complaining and not doing anything to fix it. I am for ignoring the loonies and the screamers on both sides of any debate, and for praising and listening to, and RESPECTING the normal, everyday people who are trying to make the country a better place by working for what they believe in, even if it doesn't make the news.

I am for us. I am for the US.

I just have to keep repeating that every time I get the urge to go off at someone I think is being one of those screaming loonies.

**Madmax (Grape)** · 09-21-09, 04:17 PM

I am against the national debt, especially when it is for wasteful things such as wars, and tax breaks. However, if the money is at least going to something positive (healthcare, infrastructure, education) then it can be acceptable. I'd really like to go back to the Clinton years w/ a balanced budget.

**Fovezer** · 09-21-09, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by ***COMMANDER***

In an 8 year term with the Bush Administration, our debt was about 1.3 trillion and that was with a democrat controlled congress.

With the new Obama Administration, our debt is now about 4.5 trillion and growing and half of his term is not even over.

Not quite sure where you are getting your numbers, but they are way off. The debt was $5.8 trillion when Bush took office, and was about $10.7 trillion when he left. So that is an addition of about $4.9 trillion onto the debt.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...bt-under-bush/
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09...y4486228.shtml

The debt now is about $11.8 trillion, but not all the debt that is accruing is because of Obama. There is still residual from the Bush Presidency adding to it. The two wars and TARP being the biggest things.

But are you talking about the deficit? If so, Obama inherited a $1.2 trillion deficit from Bush for this year. Even then, most of the deficits lay with Bush policy and, specifically, the bailout, which Obama did vote for. So he is not responsible for most of the deficit, but he is responsible for not limiting it. However, that is hard, if not impossible, to do doing a recession. A great article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/bu...t.html?_r=1&hp

**Highstakes72** · 09-21-09, 04:31 PM

I am not for deficit spending spending when we are simultaneously ganking industry. I am for capping the baseline federal budget at a fixed % of the previous fiscal year's GDP.....and term limits for congress.

and Bush spent way to much too...

**BruceBloodMaster** · 09-21-09, 04:33 PM

I have a huge problem with the debt at a Trillion or two or three or Four ! That being said the only thing Worse is the fact that we are Monetizing our Debt which can Only lead to High Inflation. If you think things are bad now..........just wait its gonna get Alot Worse. As far as the govt buying its way in private industry well this all comes from people (Congress) most who have never even run their Own business and know Nothing about it.

***COMMANDER*** · 09-21-09, 04:33 PM

Thanks to Deus, right here.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget...ssets/hist.pdf

And Bush inherited debt from his predecessor and handled it pretty well over an 8 year term and kept us for 8yrs of going into a recession and stimulated the economy and kept us going in the right direction. However the current poll is whether you agree with our debt as it sits and currently growing/going.

**Silent_Crow** · 09-21-09, 04:40 PM

lol at those who vote yes. Of course no one approves of debt. I oppose it just as much as I opposed the debt when bush was in office.

In my HS polysci class my teacher pointed out how a government doesnt operate like a business does. For example for public schools - If they are frugal, creative, etc. and spend less money than their budget allocated to them, then instead of being rewarded like a business, they are punished by being given a smaller budget the next year.

Same with elected officials. When people elect someone to the house/congress/presidency they expect something good to happen - such as more highway funding, schooling funding, etc. There is no incentive for a congressmen to give his constituency nothing, or take something away. Because then he will lose the next election.

Wars cost money, and Bush and congress decided to go into a (very expensive) war, and to CUT taxes, which cut our income. So we spend more and brought in less. It makes no business sense.

**Fovezer** · 09-21-09, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by ***COMMANDER***

Thanks to Deus, right here.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget...ssets/hist.pdf

I think you are getting numbers confused. The debt is at $11.8 trillion, not $4.5, and Bush added $4.9 trillion to the debt during his time in office, not $1.3.

Originally Posted by ***COMMANDER***

And Bush inherited debt from his predecessor and handled it pretty well over an 8 year term and kept us for 8yrs of going into a recession and stimulated the economy and kept us going in the right direction. However the current poll is whether you agree with our debt as it sits and currently growing/going.

No, Bush inherited a budget surplus which the CBO projected, based on the policies in effect at that time, would go from $200 billion in 2001 to $800 billion in 2009. What happened? Bush tax cuts, for starters. Then he led us into a major recession and increasing deficit and debt. But other than that, I agree, he did a bang-up job!