Thread: Reganomics

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Originally Posted by Tuck

Originally Posted by ***COMMANDER***

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

What do you think these statements are addressing? They seem like broad, fairly meaningless platitudes.

I'm also surprised nobody has mentioned the epic fail of Reagan's "war on drugs".

Someone did but in another thread and couldn't back the statement that the war on drugs was an epic fail. So by all means enlighten us on how it's an epic fail.

Are you talking about that thread where I said it was a failure, you said prove it, I did prove it and you ignored my post and changed the subject? No?

I dont recall you proving it. I recall you giving your opinion on it but lacked proof 1.

I left out that i wasnt actually refering to you. This topic has been up many times before.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Well then you have an opinion that the war has failed because you would rather see an attempt at trying to control it. I would rather have someone out there trying to keep as much out of the hands of kids as humanly possible. Nothing is 100%. Even if you let the dea go around every law that matters you still wont get 100%. So saying its a failure because it hasn't performed at 100% is just ridiculous.

We have controls in place for many things now and it no more effective than you think the war on drugs has been but yet we continue to try. So by your logic we should just take all of that stuff and put it bubble gum machines for everyone to get when they want because the controls have failed.

Directly from the BoJ http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/du.htm

Student reports of availability of drugs
Percent of high school seniors reporting they could obtain drugs fairly easily or very easily, 2008

Marijuana 83.9 %
Amphetamines 47.9
Cocaine 42.4
Barbiturates 38.8
Crack 35.2
LSD 28.5
Heroin 25.4
Crystal methamphetamine 23.3
Tranquilizers 22.4
PCP 20.6
Amyl/butyl nitrites 16.9
Source: Press release: Various stimulant drugs show continuing gradual declines among teens in 2008, most illicit drugs hold steady, University of Michigan News and Information Services, December 11, 2008. (Acrobat file 767.5 KB)
http://monitoringthefuture.org/press...r_complete.pdf

Chew on that for a minute, think it over. Epic win right? Keeping those drugs far away from kids right? No. You do not understand how a black market works, and everything everybody BUT you has been saying on this thread apparently has gone in one ear and out the other without a single critical thought. This is how it works, I'll keep it brief.
Prohibition creates a black market. Those who make money off the black market function outside the law and therefore do not care who they sell to as long as the price is right. The law of the black market is profit. So they don't give a damn if they sell to kids, and often prefer it because kids are easy targets. Once a kid comes in contact with a dealer, maybe for something as simple as pot, they are in contact with all the other drugs that the dealer and his network would like to sell as well, and would actually like to sell more as they are far more profitable.

As for your ridiculous hyperbole fear mongering that regulation means putting drugs in bubble gum machines...give me break. What are you, Ronald Reagan? Now lets say we don't legalize all drugs, just marijuana, the one drug that is laughably listed by the DEA as schedule 1 along with heroine (thankfully obama is changing that). It would work exactly like an ABC store works for liquor- the sale being limited strictly to adults over 21, and likely in quantity as well. Would this keep kids from bumming pot off of an adult? No, but it would do a much better job than prohibition at keeping the stuff out of the hands of kids. And for those who just experimented with pot it wouldn't put them in contact with the hard drugs either. So according to your previous statement, you should actually be FOR legalization and regulation of at least marijuana, as is anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the negative effects of prohibition.

How many more angles should I attack this from? Medical? Marijuana is far less harmful than alcohol and tobacco, yet those are perfectly legal. In fact the AMA is finally coming around to recognizing its medical potentials in plant form, not the shitty synthetic THC "Marinol" that every patient hates.
Economic? You want to see what prohibition does without much critical thought? Just look at alcohol prohibition and the organized crime that ONLY existed because of it. Rather than immense profits generating revenue for the nation it goes to murderous thugs and crime syndicates. Mexican cartels ring a bell? But no worries, we can just keep spending hundreds of billions of dollars and losing any possible revenue to cartels outside the country with little to no effect on drug availability to kids. Good deal.
Philosophical? How about the right to one's body? The harm principle- if it doesn't physically harm others you are free to do what you want with yourself. Wouldn't individuals making their own decisions, rather than a dishonest system that fear mongers, and jails based on moral social control, be better?

But this is just a few paragraphs and people write books about this. Try going to your local library and searching "drug policy". I guarantee that 9/10 books you find will be very critical of absolute drug prohibition, especially that of marijuana. And not because of a liberal conspiracy, because it's the truth.

Originally Posted by Tuck

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Well then you have an opinion that the war has failed because you would rather see an attempt at trying to control it. I would rather have someone out there trying to keep as much out of the hands of kids as humanly possible. Nothing is 100%. Even if you let the dea go around every law that matters you still wont get 100%. So saying its a failure because it hasn't performed at 100% is just ridiculous.

We have controls in place for many things now and it no more effective than you think the war on drugs has been but yet we continue to try. So by your logic we should just take all of that stuff and put it bubble gum machines for everyone to get when they want because the controls have failed.

Directly from the BoJ http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/du.htm

Student reports of availability of drugs
Percent of high school seniors reporting they could obtain drugs fairly easily or very easily, 2008

Marijuana 83.9 %
Amphetamines 47.9
Cocaine 42.4
Barbiturates 38.8
Crack 35.2
LSD 28.5
Heroin 25.4
Crystal methamphetamine 23.3
Tranquilizers 22.4
PCP 20.6
Amyl/butyl nitrites 16.9
Source: Press release: Various stimulant drugs show continuing gradual declines among teens in 2008, most illicit drugs hold steady, University of Michigan News and Information Services, December 11, 2008. (Acrobat file 767.5 KB)
http://monitoringthefuture.org/press...r_complete.pdf

Chew on that for a minute, think it over. Epic win right? Keeping those drugs far away from kids right? No. You do not understand how a black market works, and everything everybody BUT you has been saying on this thread apparently has gone in one ear and out the other without a single critical thought. This is how it works, I'll keep it brief.
Prohibition creates a black market. Those who make money off the black market function outside the law and therefore do not care who they sell to as long as the price is right. The law of the black market is profit. So they don't give a damn if they sell to kids, and often prefer it because kids are easy targets. Once a kid comes in contact with a dealer, maybe for something as simple as pot, they are in contact with all the other drugs that the dealer and his network would like to sell as well, and would actually like to sell more as they are far more profitable.

As for your ridiculous hyperbole fear mongering that regulation means putting drugs in bubble gum machines...give me break. What are you, Ronald Reagan? Now lets say we don't legalize all drugs, just marijuana, the one drug that is laughably listed by the DEA as schedule 1 along with heroine (thankfully obama is changing that). It would work exactly like an ABC store works for liquor- the sale being limited strictly to adults over 21, and likely in quantity as well. Would this keep kids from bumming pot off of an adult? No, but it would do a much better job than prohibition at keeping the stuff out of the hands of kids. And for those who just experimented with pot it wouldn't put them in contact with the hard drugs either. So according to your previous statement, you should actually be FOR legalization and regulation of at least marijuana, as is anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the negative effects of prohibition.

How many more angles should I attack this from? Medical? Marijuana is far less harmful than alcohol and tobacco, yet those are perfectly legal. In fact the AMA is finally coming around to recognizing its medical potentials in plant form, not the shitty synthetic THC "Marinol" that every patient hates.
Economic? You want to see what prohibition does without much critical thought? Just look at alcohol prohibition and the organized crime that ONLY existed because of it. Rather than immense profits generating revenue for the nation it goes to murderous thugs and crime syndicates. Mexican cartels ring a bell? But no worries, we can just keep spending hundreds of billions of dollars and losing any possible revenue to cartels outside the country with little to no effect on drug availability to kids. Good deal.
Philosophical? How about the right to one's body? The harm principle- if it doesn't physically harm others you are free to do what you want with yourself. Wouldn't individuals making their own decisions, rather than a dishonest system that fear mongers, and jails based on moral social control, be better?

But this is just a few paragraphs and people write books about this. Try going to your local library and searching "drug policy". I guarantee that 9/10 books you find will be very critical of absolute drug prohibition, especially that of marijuana. And not because of a liberal conspiracy, because it's the truth.

Well lets put it this way not any of those numbers are at 100% so i guess we must be doing something. I know i didn't type this big long ass post for you to read but it only took i sentence to blast your down. So much for the critical thinker.

Forgot to put in your lack of understanding when it comes to critical thinking. You say mj is less harmfull than alcohol and tobacco. Sorry but you are miss guided. Tobacco doesn't really do much of anything. It's the chemicals added to tobacco products that cause almost all of the damage.

Alcohol in moderation is actually good for you. When it is abused it becomes harmfull.

However mj isn't good for you from day one. It has characteristics that make it usefull medically. However there isn't one that is usefull nonmedically.

Is there anything else you would like to add critcal thinker?

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Well lets put it this way not any of those numbers are at 100% so i guess we must be doing something. I know i didn't type this big long ass post for you to read but it only took i sentence to blast your down. So much for the critical thinker.

Forgot to put in your lack of understanding when it comes to critical thinking. You say mj is less harmfull than alcohol and tobacco. Sorry but you are miss guided. Tobacco doesn't really do much of anything. It's the chemicals added to tobacco products that cause almost all of the damage.

Alcohol in moderation is actually good for you. When it is abused it becomes harmfull.

However mj isn't good for you from day one. It has characteristics that make it usefull medically. However there isn't one that is usefull nonmedically.

Is there anything else you would like to add critcal thinker?

Wow, are you serious? I have to go to the library, I'll respond to this when I have time.

Sorry I got a bit heated by the way death, just something I'm passionate about, I'll try and keep it more civil. This should be a debate not a fight.

Originally Posted by Tuck

Sorry I got a bit heated by the way death, just something I'm passionate about, I'll try and keep it more civil. This should be a debate not a fight.

Tuck not a problem what so ever. I understand everyone has something they have to be passionate about. I just don't want to forget to be a critical thinker. As i'm sure you know a critical thinker can not shot down one side of a story just because he doesn't like it or doesn't agree with it. Obviously you have put thought into this subject as have I but we fall on opposite sides of the fence. Nothing wrong with that.

Now erik.

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Well lets put it this way not any of those numbers are at 100% so i guess we must be doing something. I know i didn't type this big long ass post for you to read but it only took i sentence to blast your down. So much for the critical thinker.

Forgot to put in your lack of understanding when it comes to critical thinking. You say mj is less harmfull than alcohol and tobacco. Sorry but you are miss guided. Tobacco doesn't really do much of anything. It's the chemicals added to tobacco products that cause almost all of the damage.

Alcohol in moderation is actually good for you. When it is abused it becomes harmfull.

However mj isn't good for you from day one. It has characteristics that make it usefull medically. However there isn't one that is usefull nonmedically.

Is there anything else you would like to add critcal thinker?

I hope Tuck doesn't mind if I jump in here a bit. Sorry I missed your response to me before Death, but it looks like Tuck basically covered it anyway.

So, those numbers not being 100% doesn't mean we're doing something at all. It also doesn't necessarily mean we aren't. It means what it means, which is that at this time, drugs are still very easy for youth to obtain. Is 83% better than 90% ? Marginally. Is it billions of dollars better? No. Its also absolutely possible that (Although its hard to find statistics on this, maybe Tuck can) these numbers were lower before the war on drugs, in other words that it has gotten worse.

On to what you said about tobacco, take a gander at this link http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

Tobacco kills an estimated 435,000 people every year in America, Alcohol 85,000, prescription medications 32,000.... and Marijuana: 0. Yeah, tobacco is way better.

Explain the adverse effects of Marijuana. I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm just saying prove it. As far as it not having non medicinal uses... What were the non medicinal uses of Tobacco and Alcohol again?

I like how you ignored almost everything and focused on 1 number mj and skipped the fact that none of the rest were even at 50%. I also like the fact that you gave a web site that is for the legalazation of mj as your resource. Just out of curiousity seeing as you want to make dollar value so important. Just what is a human life worth to you?

I wasnt standing up and saying that tobacco is good for you. I simple said tobacco itself isnt bad the chemicals added to it are. As for alcohol i know i dont have to tell you that it's recommened to have a drink everyday.

Now for your mj as it seems to be what you are primarly focued on. Started typing but figured it was easier to just go get it and this isnt even one of the scare tactic ones.

Marijuana affects your brain. THC (the active ingredient in marijuana) affects the nerve cells in the part of the brain where memories are formed.

Marijuana affects your self-control. Marijuana can seriously affect your sense of time and your coordination, impacting things like driving. In 2002, nearly 120,000 people were admitted to emergency rooms suffering from marijuana-related problems, an increase of more than 139 percent since 1995.1

Marijuana affects your lungs. There are more than 400 known chemicals in marijuana. A single joint contains four times as much cancer-causing tar as a filtered cigarette.2

Marijuana affects other aspects of your health. Marijuana can limit your body's ability to fight off infection.3 Long-term marijuana use can even increase the risk of developing certain mental illnesses.4

Marijuana is not always what it seems. Marijuana can be laced with other dangerous drugs without your knowledge. "Blunts"--hollowed-out cigars filled with marijuana--sometimes have substances such as crack cocaine, PCP, or embalming fluid added.

Marijuana can be addictive. Not everyone who uses marijuana becomes addicted, but some users do develop signs of dependence. In 1999, more than 220,000 people entered drug treatment programs to kick their marijuana habit.5

http://ncadi.samhsa.gov/govpubs/phd641/

I do however find charts that seem to show a different trend than what tuck has shown.

Percentage of 8th-Graders Who Have Used Marijuana:


1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001
Lifetime 19.9% 23.1% 22.6% 22.2% 22.0% 20.3% 20.4%
Past Year 15.8 18.3 17.7 16.9 16.5 15.6 15.4
Past Month 9.1 11.3 10.2 9.7 9.7 9.1 9.2
Daily 0.8 1.5 1.1 1.1 1.4 1.3 1.3


2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Lifetime 19.2% 17.5% 16.3% 16.5% 15.7% 14.2% 14.6%
Past Year 14.6 12.8 11.8 12.2 11.7 10.3 10.9
Past Month 8.3 7.5 6.4 6.6 6.5 5.7 5.8
Daily 1.2 1.0 0.8 1.0 1.0 0.8 0.9




Percentage of 10th-Graders Who Have Used Marijuana:


1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001
Lifetime 34.1% 39.8% 42.3% 39.6% 40.9% 40.3% 40.1%
Past Year 28.7 33.6 34.8 31.1 32.1 32.2 32.7
Past Month 17.2 20.4 20.5 18.7 19.4 19.7 19.8
Daily 2.8 3.5 3.7 3.6 3.8 3.8 4.5


2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Lifetime 38.7% 36.4% 35.1% 34.1% 31.8% 31.0% 29.9%
Past Year 30.3 28.2 27.5 26.6 25.2 24.6 23.9
Past Month 17.8 17.0 15.9 15.2 14.2 14.2 13.8
Daily 3.9 3.6 3.2 3.1 2.8 2.8 2.7




Percentage of 12th-Graders Who Have Used Marijuana


1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001
Lifetime 41.7% 44.9% 49.6% 49.1% 49.7% 48.8% 49.0%
Past Year 34.7 35.8 38.5 37.5 37.8 36.5 37.0
Past Month 21.2 21.9 23.7 22.8 23.1 21.6 22.4
Daily 4.6 4.9 5.8 5.6 6.0 6.0 5.8


2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Lifetime 47.8% 46.1% 45.7% 44.8% 42.3% 41.8% 42.6%
Past Year 36.2 34.9 34.3 33.6 31.5 31.7 32.4
Past Month 21.5 21.2 19.9 19.8 18.3 18.8 19.4
Daily 6.0 6.0 5.6 5.0 5.0 5.1 5.4


“Lifetime” refers to use at least once during a respondent’s lifetime. “Past year” refers to use at least once during the year preceding an individual’s response to the survey. “Past month” refers to use at least once during the 30 days preceding an individual’s response to the survey.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

I think you have me confused with someone that actually cares wether or not an adult wants to ruin their life. My point as i have said from the begining is about kids. If this country spends billions on an attempt to keep as many drugs as possible out the hands of kids then its money well spent.

I'm pretty sure we could all go round and round finding more stats from different sites to prove each of our points. So it's pointless to keep posting facts that are going to be skewed to one side or the other. What it comes down to is personal opinion.

Mine is that the money is well spent in the effort just for the kids. I dont care if an adult goes and shoots himself. So it doesn't even come close to being important to me if they're addicts.

I do feel that this society being the way it is legalising even weed would just fuel the debate for other substains down the road. Besides you guys keep compairing weed to tobacco and appearntly haven't been keeping up with whats been going on with it. It could very well be on it's way out as well.