Thread: Epistimology, Theory of Knowledge, Ways of Knowing and the Scientific Method.

Originally Posted by KapnKrunch

To SoySoldier: Oh Chaos theory... Lorenz's Waterwheel... that stuff is mind blowing. I've spent countless hours discussing that stuff with engineering buddies I love math pretty much sums it up. Okay that was a terrible pun

Heh, I am studying neuroscience currently. And the brain is a deterministic nonlinear dynamical system; chaos plays an important role in systems neuroscience. The mechanisms we are modeling are so damn tiny and complex, that minor perturbations in them cause all kinds of randomness. The microscopic electrochemical nature of neural communication is a perfect environment to observe chaos having an affect. We should be able to predict that Neuron Y will fire when Neuron X fires, but because the chemical pathways are so small, numerous and random, the drift of an electron cloud, a little change in neurotransmitter level, radiation, gravity shifts, magnetic fields, the smell of the guy on the bus next to you or whatever, that where any charge lies on the scale of quantum superposition is anyone's guess (lol).

Chaos is important but at the level I am in (and the level I teach as well) we don't really get into it. I am in a psychology program for neuroscience (but I have taken enough math I am a dual major plus Bio, chem, O-chem, physics, geology, CS, anatomy, etc.) and most psychology students start to freak out when you spring even 200 level statistics on them... my Professor lectures on nonlinear dynamic theory and the class shrinks by half! My job is to come in and turn his 90 slide lecture into 15 slides of bulleted broad points. Hopefully I will get into the CNS (hah, another great pun!) at NYU and then I can talk to colleagues about this sort of thing... as it stands now I have to walk all the way over to the math department to add elements to my empty set.

Wooo Philosophy! :9

Woo pointless thinking exercises! :P

Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK!

Wooo Philosophy! :9

Woo pointless thinking exercises! :P

Such a thing never exists. These conversations are always fascinating. I only wish we had more.

I'm no scientist but human behaviorism and quirks have always fascinated me. I love people and the interactions so the next paragraph is based solely on my interpretation of my social interactions.

I guess that there is allot of randomness in the world, but I also believe that that's because we just don't have the acquired knowledge of how to read the chaos to begin with. I'm not saying chaos isn't chaos but rather some randomness can be chalked upto unknown factors.

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

The brain is a deterministic nonlinear dynamical system; chaos plays an important role in systems neuroscience. The mechanisms we are modeling are so damn tiny and complex, that minor perturbations in them cause all kinds of randomness. The microscopic electrochemical nature of neural communication is a perfect environment to observe chaos having an affect. We should be able to predict that Neuron Y will fire when Neuron X fires, but because the chemical pathways are so small, numerous and random, the drift of an electron cloud, a little change in neurotransmitter level, radiation, gravity shifts, magnetic fields, the smell of the guy on the bus next to you or whatever, that where any charge lies on the scale of quantum superposition is anyone's guess (lol).

Maybe theres a system of cataloging reactions based on X input. So for example X cologne = Y reaction. But then theres an infinite array of reactions. And it probably differs based on the person, exposure to this and prior exposures and experiences. So the ability to be able to measure that chaos is either (A) impossible or (B) out of our reach forever or (C) out of reach for now. Maybe the discovery of this will be the revealing of the soul and it's fundamental physics. I mean most people will admit to humans having a "soul" but when asked cannot explain it or even truly divulge whether it exists.

My belief is that the brain is the main conductor for the soul, the rest of the body is too but not to the extent of the brain. I like to think of the bodies hold on the soul more of a residual charge... The brain is the only computer capable of reading the randomness of the soul to my knowledge to this date. Also because of various genetically variances no 2 brains are similar.

Example: (I'm going to use Soy for this one - hypothetical of course).

Soy and Max goto a gamers anonymous meeting for their addiction to violent games. In order to receive a token of the first step into the meetings they must make a small speech to tell people why they are there etc.... Soy goes first and speaks firmly and loudly for 2mins, Max goes next speaks quieter and stifles laughter a few times for 3 mins.

What just happened is 2 people were given the exact same task, the outcome was different, the result the same. They received their token and went home. But that interaction just changed say 30 different people because now they have some piece of information added to their brains that will change the outcome of their lives forever. With that being said the difference in response of Soy and Max shows that it's the very effect of these instances manipulates and modifies behaviour on a sub-conscious level. I don't think it'd be true to say every brain is the same, I think many similarities exist. So based on that it is most certain in my eyes that any input given to a human brain develops a new way of thinking (aka changes those chemical paths that we can't even see..). So I guess you could call that randomness, the fact that it's constantly changing due to new assimilated information. If we can understand how to measure these instances I think we can truly understand the greatness of the human soul.

I'm curious to know where all this energy comes from?

Originally Posted by maximusboomus

I'm no scientist but human behaviorism and quirks have always fascinated me. I love people and the interactions so the next paragraph is based solely on my interpretation of my social interactions.

I guess that there is allot of randomness in the world, but I also believe that that's because we just don't have the acquired knowledge of how to read the chaos to begin with. I'm not saying chaos isn't chaos but rather some randomness can be chalked upto unknown factors.

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

The brain is a deterministic nonlinear dynamical system; chaos plays an important role in systems neuroscience. The mechanisms we are modeling are so damn tiny and complex, that minor perturbations in them cause all kinds of randomness. The microscopic electrochemical nature of neural communication is a perfect environment to observe chaos having an affect. We should be able to predict that Neuron Y will fire when Neuron X fires, but because the chemical pathways are so small, numerous and random, the drift of an electron cloud, a little change in neurotransmitter level, radiation, gravity shifts, magnetic fields, the smell of the guy on the bus next to you or whatever, that where any charge lies on the scale of quantum superposition is anyone's guess (lol).

Maybe theres a system of cataloging reactions based on X input. So for example X cologne = Y reaction. But then theres an infinite array of reactions. And it probably differs based on the person, exposure to this and prior exposures and experiences. So the ability to be able to measure that chaos is either (A) impossible or (B) out of our reach forever or (C) out of reach for now. Maybe the discovery of this will be the revealing of the soul and it's fundamental physics. I mean most people will admit to humans having a "soul" but when asked cannot explain it or even truly divulge whether it exists.

My belief is that the brain is the main conductor for the soul, the rest of the body is too but not to the extent of the brain. I like to think of the bodies hold on the soul more of a residual charge... The brain is the only computer capable of reading the randomness of the soul to my knowledge to this date. Also because of various genetically variances no 2 brains are similar.

Example: (I'm going to use Soy for this one - hypothetical of course).

Soy and Max goto a gamers anonymous meeting for their addiction to violent games. In order to receive a token of the first step into the meetings they must make a small speech to tell people why they are there etc.... Soy goes first and speaks firmly and loudly for 2mins, Max goes next speaks quieter and stifles laughter a few times for 3 mins.

What just happened is 2 people were given the exact same task, the outcome was different, the result the same. They received their token and went home. But that interaction just changed say 30 different people because now they have some piece of information added to their brains that will change the outcome of their lives forever. With that being said the difference in response of Soy and Max shows that it's the very effect of these instances manipulates and modifies behaviour on a sub-conscious level. I don't think it'd be true to say every brain is the same, I think many similarities exist. So based on that it is most certain in my eyes that any input given to a human brain develops a new way of thinking (aka changes those chemical paths that we can't even see..). So I guess you could call that randomness, the fact that it's constantly changing due to new assimilated information. If we can understand how to measure these instances I think we can truly understand the greatness of the human soul.

I'm curious to know where all this energy comes from?

Good post,

Indeed no two brains are the same. Sure they handle the same tasks in same areas (normally, those who differ usually have injuries or mental problems), but the actual shapes of the neural networks in my Broca's Area (one of the language centers) is very likely unique to myself and no other brain.

As far as randomness being a product of our level of understanding, that is dead on accurate about Nonlinear systems in general. There is a large amount of probability based on what is called "error" or "noise" although those words are misnomers. Noise in a nonlinear system is simply variables we have not yet accounted for and built into our model for the system. As we learn more and our ability to make complex models increases, the noise shrinks; eventually a nonlinear system will become linear in theory (we can make absolute predictions instead of probability based predictions).

Here is a power point slide set I use to give psychology students an overview of nonlinear dynamic systems... it's pretty basic but it gets the major points across.