Any amateur (or professional) electricians? (LONG post)

**Veovis** · 10-25-10, 07:57 PM

At my new house in CA, it appears none of the outlets are grounded except those in the bathrooms (I'm guessing code requires those ones to be updated, but not the rest). I figured this out by plugging surge protectors into each outlet and watching the status lights on the surge protector. Many of the rooms do have 3 prong outlets, but I'm guessing the ground prong goes nowhere since surge protectors still detect the outlets as ungrounded.

Now, here's where it gets funny. In the living room, where I have TV/PS3/Stereo/etc plugged in, the surge protector "grounded" light comes on when I plug the coax into the surge protector. I guess this makes sense, since coax is grounded, and the surge protector is smart enough to use it as a ground for everything, which is kind of cool.

BUT, in the room where I have my PC, even if I route the coax through the surge protector, it still shows "wiring fault" light. So it appears the TV room is simply ungrounded, while the PC room is both ungrounded, and has some other wiring problem in addition.

Note, I do not own this house, so I'm not keen on spending too much money fixing anything, and I don't think the owners will really care either (unless they are out of code or something). I know that surge protectors need grounding to be truly effective. But I also know here in CA I don't get huge thunderstorms like I did in FL or TX so I'm not sure how much I need to worry. But it also concerns me that most appliances (including my UPS which I plug into the surge protector) say in huge letters not to use on ungrounded outlets. Though, I am sure all of the previous residents used appliances with similar warning (refrigerators, window unit A/C's, etc), and the house has never burned down.

Probably not related, but after 3 months living here, my SSD died yesterday, and I read that one cause could be poor electrical wiring in the house, brownout etc... though that sounded like posturing from the mfr. No power surges that I noticed when the drive died (though I was intentionally rebooting several times in a 5 minute period), and none of my other drives or hardware is acting funny. Plus on the OCZ forums I found TONS of people reporting the same thing, and apparently the drive might not be dead, but I need a jumper to bring it back to life and reflash factory firmware.

So, long story short... I was worried about the poor wiring when we first moved in, then kind of stopped worrying about it. Now that I had that SSD problem, I'm wondering if it was related. Even if it wasn't, I'm still wondering if I should fix this grounding issue. Is it something I can do myself, without killing myself or burning the house down? How much would a pro electrician charge? I think my absolute cheapest bet would be to run an extension cord under the floor from TV room to PC room (as I'm already doing with coax) and allow me to plug my PC into the TV room outets which, with the addition of coax connection to surge protector, will create a grounded condition for my PC power.

**flame** · 10-25-10, 10:57 PM

First, I would avoid running extension cords under rugs or long distances as they build up heat with load and can be a fire hazard.
Second, it is possible that the wiring is incorrect and can simply be swapped in the outlet. Hard to guess, but I would consult an electrician. Sounds like you arent comfortable pulling a wall outlet out to look at it. Removing the cover on the breaker panel would also tell you if you have just two wires going to the circuit. It shouldnt be too hard to pull new wire using the existing wire to pull, so having it fixed might not be as expensive as you might think.

The coax grounding the surge protector doesnt sound right, but I guess so... They do sell a little plugin that lights up and tells you if a wire is in the wrong spot on an outlet.

**DOMINATOR** · 10-25-10, 11:50 PM

how old is this house?

have you taken an outlet out? guessing the installer got lazy and didnt hookup the ground.
if you do run an extension cord from a grounded outlet use 12-gauge. most outlets are 14-gauge, 12 is big appliances (refrigerator), 10 is dryer/oven. although i dont think it will start a fire because 12-gauge will keep the heat lower than a normal 16-gauge extension cord would. still wouldnt do it though. (ghetto)

of course you could just replace that one outlet with a GFCI outlet.

**draco7891** · 10-25-10, 11:57 PM

Dex is our resident electrician, I'm sure he'll know.

Depending on where you are specifically (some cities have differing codes) it may be the responsibility of the landlord to fix the electrical, or it may not. In all cases however, it IS a major code violation to use a groundable outlet in a nongrounded circuit. That should be corrected immediately. Nongrounded circuits are more than likely (again, varying by city) to-code as long as they were originally installed properly and all modifications to them were to-code (and of the nongrounded type).

You can do the work yourself, but you have to have the work permitted and inspected before finishing and covering things up (and the permissions of the landlord, as applicable). Doing the work clandestinely can mess with insurance payouts if your wiring ends up at-fault in an accident or fire.

If you re-wire, it's really best to have everything done at once. Trying to mix and match or save some money will only bring headaches in the future.

Don't run an extension cord over/under/around/through anything just for the sake of grounding. The heating and current load present a far greater fire hazard than a lack of grounding.

My advice is if you have access to enough of the wall and some plumbing, you might be able to fish a tertiary grounding line in and ground it to the plumbing; it's not always pretty, but it gets the job done (and it passes inspection in LA county, at least). The clamp has to be accessible for periodic inspection, no behind-the-wall installs when using that.

Draco

**deathgodusmc** · 10-26-10, 12:36 AM

Unless work is being done to the house it remains in code for the time the work was completed. If the owner does start a project it opens a whole can of worms because everything he is doing now has to be brought up to current code. I wouldn't sweat the outlet grounds. Yes it doesn't meet current code but it wont cause you any issues. I would take a guess your biggest issue is if the house has that type of wiring then your electric bill could be quite a bit lower with new equipment and you run into issues with the voltage. Meaning you cant power as much shit off one outlet that a newer house can. So just dont overload the socket and you will be perfectly fine.

**Veovis** · 10-26-10, 09:41 PM

Ok, so summary seems to be:

Don't worry too much about lack of grounding (but aren't my surge protectors pretty useless with no grounding?)
Don't run extension cable for permanent use (wasn't going under carpet, was thinking about going under actual house, but still... I'll avoid that)

Maybe I'll have a pro check it out one of these days... we'll see.

**dex71** · 10-27-10, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Veovis

Ok, so summary seems to be:

Don't worry too much about lack of grounding (but aren't my surge protectors pretty useless with no grounding?)
Don't run extension cable for permanent use (wasn't going under carpet, was thinking about going under actual house, but still... I'll avoid that)

Maybe I'll have a pro check it out one of these days... we'll see.

Sorry I didn't see this sooner,Veo.

It looks like you are getting some wise council , though.
1. Don't run the extension cord....nothing good can come from it if you aren't popping fuses or tripping breakers.

2. As for the surge protectors , they do have a ground , just not the separate ground they are looking for. Technically (and realistically) the Neutral (the white wire on the outlet) is a "working" ground, and it is bonded (in your electrical panel) to the grounding system of your house. The ground wire's purpose is not to prevent fire, but to prevent electrical shock. Many appliances use it to bond their metal parts to the house's grounding system to prevent any kind of potential electrical difference. Electronic devices (such as your surge protectors) use the separate ground to purge any kind of electrical noise (harmonic currents and the like) from the devices connected to it. This really isn't a big problem in a single family dwelling (ie...a house), but can come into play (sometimes) in apartment buildings. Electronic noise is most prevalent in office buildings where you have a ton of fluorescent lighting loads and circuits full of computers.

I wouldn't worry about it. For your computer, I would suggest a UPS ( as you already have done)...that would go much further to protect your equipment than anything else (given the brownouts and the surges associated with them). An electrician would come in and install a GFCI outlet (or breaker), but that will do nothing for your equipment. In fact, if it makes you feel better, you could EASILY do that yourself for less than $20. In a perfect World (one where you would own the house), I would run a dedicated circuit to the Home Theater and Computer locations, but since you don't own the house (ie....you won't likely be there in 10 years) it just isn't worth the investment.