Thread: commanding vs. admining

This isn't a specific admin abuse report, so feel free to move to where you think it's appropriate.

I'm seeing a couple of posts recently about admins who are kicking/banning players while they are commanding a team and I feel that I have to say something about possible conflict of interest. From what I can understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), admin powers are used to remove disruptive players who are being abusive (either in attitude - being racist/sexist/etc. or exploiting a game mechanic - FTK, glitching, cheating, etc.) as well as things like restarting the server when it crashes/rotating out of Tampa Bay, etc.

However, in the case where a commander also happens to be a server admin, I'm not sure it's necessarily acceptable that they can kick/ban people who are denying the commander's order for in-game actions that are clearly not abuse - an SL has the ability to refuse to follow a commander's order, just like a squaddie has the ability to refuse to follow an SL's order (Pg-Down key, anybody?). Among the issues here is that many times the commander isn't an admin and so can't just randomly kick/ban people who aren't following orders. It's part of the game where a bad commander won't be listened to (since mutiny votes rarely actually affect an outcome), just like a bad SL can end up with all their squaddies leaving the squad. True, an SL can kick members out of their squad, but again, that's part of the in-game mechanic - ALL SLs have this ability, not just special admins. Finally, I don't remember seeing any sort of explicit server rule that results in a kick if you are an SL who refuses a commander's order. In any case, commanders who can kick/ban may either be: disenfranchising other potential commanders who can't, OR using a "non-ingame" mechanic to effect their team. That being said, if you make it a server rule that says "SLs MUST follow Cmdr orders or be kicked" then fine (although again, I think that would be unfair - I mean what about the specops squad that is trying to take out enemy base assets or the sniper squad that is trying to camp an uncap or if the SL is a pilot, etc.) - keeping in mind that non-disruptive Lone Wolves are only threatened with a kick so a ban for not following Commanders orders would definitely seem like over the top for me...

I'm pretty sure one of the rules of all BF servers is to "follow the call", same as it is for all of our other games. However, I know which incidents you're referring to, and in each case, a lot more was involved than someone simply ignoring an order. While it might seem like a conflict of interest to someone who admittedly only read the posts of the people who were kicked, in reality, all the admins involved performed their duties to the letter.

We assign admins to games based on their experience with the game as well as their time and dedication to TTP. Even if we suddenly said that all admins could no longer command, due to perceived conflicts of interest, the only thing that would change would be the number of our admins. People would still be kicked and banned for not following orders, at least without providing their commander with a good reason or getting smart.

Originally Posted by [CoFR

SirMoo ]
...possible conflict of interest. From what I can understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), admin powers are used to remove disruptive players...

there's a full stop right there. SL's who refuse to follow orders are being disruptive and detrimental to the team effort, and will thus be removed.

an SL has the ability to refuse to follow a commander's order, just like a squaddie has the ability to refuse to follow an SL's order

Any SL can refuse an order, so long as they come back to the CO with a reasonable explanation or further intelligence. An SL has eyes on the ground, and sometimes the commander may miss that enemy advance, or the fact that your squad doesn't have the equipment to carry out the order (like armor or AT kits), or the SL may want to give some advice to the CO about strategy; these are cases where refusing an order is allowed. But if the CO says "no, follow the order as given", the SL must follow it.

In any case, commanders who can kick/ban may either be: disenfranchising other potential commanders who can't

How? Anyone is free to take the CO seat if they think they're up to the challenge; it's not reserved. Further, any CO with an uncooperative squad can put a message in allchat for the admins to see, and the problem will be dealt with quickly.

using a "non-ingame" mechanic to effect their team.

SL's who don't follow orders are just as disruptive an influence as any other asshat on the server, regardless of which team they're on, and will be dealt with as such. They cost immense amounts of time and energy for the CO, and they may cost the game itself if they let a time-sensitive strategy fall apart. That is why it is so important that SL's follow orders.

...keeping in mind that non-disruptive Lone Wolves are only threatened with a kick so a ban for not following Commanders orders would definitely seem like over the top for me...

Any disruptive influence may be subject to the full gamut of punishment, up to and including permanent banning. Just because the punishment is usually a kick for being unsquadded does not mean that there have not been nor that there never will be a ban over it. Habitual offenders, for example, may find themselves suddenly off the server, should they continue to refuse to listen to the admins.

Draco

Not to mention rule #1

Originally Posted by ...bigdog...

[size=24px]#1. Play with your team. [/size]

BF2 is an objective based, team-oriented game. It's a shame that so many servers are full of one-man hero's and the idea that the only time to play as a team is in a match. This server exists to end all of that. If you want to be a rogue, or you think you “play better alone", then go buy a single-player game, and go do that. On our server, you WILL play WITH your team, or you WILL be punished. Use your mic, follow the your squad leader and commander (or be the squad leader/commander), and get your objectives completed. Those in positions of leadership WILL BE subject to these same rules. If you, or the group of people you play with on our server are the kinds of people that disregard orders from commanders, deny assitance to those requesting it, or honestly just don't care about anyone else on the server but yourselves......you are in the wrong place, and will learn quickly that you are not only unwelcome, but prohibited from playing here.

We have issued more bans for non-teamplaying than we have for hacking or abusive conduct.

All we ask is that you play the game as it was designed: as a coordinated army of air, armor, and ground forces tasked with occupying and holding enemy territory. Note the emphasis on the word coordinated.

Admins are here to manage the server and people not following orders will be dealt with and it doesn't matter who you are or how much time you have on the server. And to correct you in your statement that a non-admin doesn't have any power to deal with someone who isn't following orders is ludicrous. We have commanders everyday that will call out for an admin on someone that isn't following orders and guess what they get kicked or banned. If a commander isn't doing their job to support their team, guess what, they get kicked or banned.

To have three threads now on the same subject is ridiculous. Read the rules. If they don't suit you, find someplace else to play.

This is Texas ...TeamPlayers...