Thread: Is Heavy too good now?

Originally Posted by Keiron

That is why no single weapon has been banned in CSS. It is part of the game and part of your strategy. Deal with it and learn to adapt, or fail. It is that simple.

That's why I see AWP restrict votes and cry threads in the CSS forum every month right? And a fulltime server that says No AWP\autos.

That's an example of a community modifying the game to best suit them.

Originally Posted by jabberwock

I think one of the main reasons not too many 6v6ers like it is that it alters (much the same as the sandman) how someone can move. If you're caught in the slow cone, any dodging or movement skills you have are pretty much out the window.

This is a common misconception, but you can actually get out of the cone of fire by dodging. The slow stacks over time so you have to act quickly or the full effect will pretty much screw you. The best tactic is to jump and strafe in random directions. Scouts will have the most luck with this because of their double jump, but anyone can do it. It is a hit scan weapon like any other, so the heavy has to aim it like anyone else. Create distance if you can while strafing, and the Natascha becomes less effective as you do.

The biggest mistake I see people make is that they just turn and run in a very predictable way. Don't turn you back on the heavy so you can see how he is moving. Counter that movement with your own to create the most distance, and put the most obstacles between you and him. The best path is often one which detours to partial cover where you can cause most or all of the slow to drop then looking for more permanent solutions.

Finally prioritize your targets. The heavy is often going to be your lowest priority especially when he is holding Natascha at range. Focus on the other players, and isolate the heavy(often this means drawing the other players away from the heavy). Once he is cut off from his team he will be at a distinct disadvantage.

Originally Posted by Captain Coors

Nah you have it completely wrong to be honest. Comp players just dont want to play those classes and bother even coming up with strats, because its not fun for their tastes.

Big difference from being unable to come up with strats - they don't want to even bother cause its not fun.

Why does the NFL not allow the fumblerooskie play? Cause its not fun for them.

Comp teams run a big variety of strats around unlocks like kritzkreig, tard charge demos, gunboat soldiers, FAN scouts, etc etc.

Unlocks they find enjoyable.

Note for the record that I personally like the natascha and would rather it wasn't banned, but I feel compelled to explain the reasoning since it seems people can't understand that its every communities right to play however the game is fun for them.

The NFL players are also getting paid to do a job. Sure it is a job most of them enjoy doing, but the fact that they get paid for doing it changes everything. You don't want to keep someone in there who is always fumbling because you'll loose and that means less money in the long run. You let the guy get experience though and learn from him mistakes so it usually isn't a total loss unless they just suck. Given that they are in the NFL though, that shouldn't be the case or why would they be there?

What I find fun does not equal what everyone else finds fun. It sounds like there are cookie cutter strats that everyone follows and that sounds very boring and easy to get use to. I'm not saying that it is though, but without playing or using certain weapons/classes you are limiting yourself to those classes strengths/weaknesses of classes you are using and the ones you're not using. Sure it is about having fun, but it is also about winning. I don't care how much I die as long as I help contribute to the win, even if I serve as a distraction. I'll use whatever class is needed to help the team, whether I enjoy the class or not.

But like I said though, what is fun for me is not the same as what is fun for everyone else. I guess that is why I never got into the competitve scene much in any game. I got into it with CS for a little bit and it was the same weapons used by almost all the players. It gets boring because there is no variety and with so few rounds you need to spend your money wisely. The strats themselves though are what is always changing and being challenging as people come up with new strats all the time.

My point is though it just isn't for me because it is not something I typically enjoy doing over and over again.

Originally Posted by Captain Coors

That's why I see AWP restrict votes and cry threads in the CSS forum every month right? And a fulltime server that says No AWP\autos.

That's an example of a community modifying the game to best suit them.

I was referring to league play. It is easier to counter in league play most of the time since there are fewer of them and most league players know how to effectively counter them. In pubs and on TPG, most people don't or they abuse them where you just get a huge AWP/Auto fest and it becomes more about kills and sniping than pursuing the objective. More info can be found though in the many threads that we do have on TPG here so I won't go into anymore details about it here as this is not the CSS forums.

Originally Posted by DOMINATOR

sandman's been banned since day 1.

er...whoops...I knew that... I just meant Natasha....type failure

Originally Posted by sickwookie

This is a common misconception, but you can actually get out of the cone of fire by dodging.

Yes, dodging helps. Closer range it's a bit easier to get away with dodging if you do it from the get go, but anyone with decent tracking aim will have you pretty quick beyond that, then your movement is fucked. Just a couple hits, and you're too slow to escape the CONE OF FIRE from a heavy unless he sucks. No misconception there, and he doesn't even need to have his crosshair right on top of you.



Keep in mind that all the unlocks are 'balanced' for 12v12 play, not 6v6. Removing one or two that are found undesirable in a smaller format isn't that rediculous, is it?

Originally Posted by jabberwock

Yes, dodging helps. Closer range it's a bit easier to get away with dodging if you do it from the get go, but anyone with decent tracking aim will have you pretty quick beyond that, then your movement is fucked. Just a couple hits, and you're too slow to escape the CONE OF FIRE from a heavy unless he sucks. No misconception there, and he doesn't even need to have his crosshair right on top of you.

A heavy does need to keep his crosshair directly on top of you if he hopes to actually get the kill. It is a cone of fire, but that is a double edged sword. To get the highest hit probability you must hold the center of the cone on your target. There is room for error, but anything less will only get a kill at very close range. If you are relying on the cone to do damage you are not going to miss a lot, and most of your targets will get away. There is a sweet spot at medium range where what you are talking about is true. The Natascha quickly stacks slow then kills. If you are closer you can dodge out of it, or farther and you can find cover.

A good heavy is always going to try to trap you in that sweet spot. This is why the heavy seems so much stronger now. He is able to move, and put himself into a position that will offer the greatest advantage. You must now deal with his ability to gain an advantage through positioning. Just like you would not let a soldier gain the high ground you must not let a heavy close distance to gain cover.

Every other class can still out maneuver him. The Natascha just reduces the margin of error if he sees you. If you don't get it right the first time you will be punished, and probably will see a spawn timer before you get a second chance. You do not get to ignore the threat of the heavy anymore, or you will get punished. This does not mean he is OP or that Natascha needs a nerf, it just means we need to come up with better strats to deal with them.

Originally Posted by jabberwock

Keep in mind that all the unlocks are 'balanced' for 12v12 play, not 6v6. Removing one or two that are found undesirable in a smaller format isn't that rediculous, is it?

No argument from me there. If leagues want to ban it that is fine with me, I guess a lot of us just don't get the whole comp play in TF2. I used to compete in CS 1.6, and as far as I can remember there were no major modifications to the game. In TF2 I see these configs that change all kinds of things from damage spread, to crits, class limits, and item bans. At some point it just seems like you might want to consider that TF2 is not meant for competition?