Thread: Accidental ban lift?

Some excellent points in that video.

You have to remember, the Bible is nothing more than a textbook used by religious fundamentalists to assist in expanding their power base. They want you to believe that it is fact, and indeed many do. This is especially given that most are far too lazy to search for the truth, and would rather settle on what's convenient (and what could be more convenient than giving up your Sundays in return for eternal salvation?).

Keep the truth the truth, and keep this shit in the fiction section.

Originally Posted by Viking

I don't think there are any thumpers on DT...

X-C is a wanna-be thumper, although you always have to keep it in the back of your mind that he first love is fucking with people's minds.

You all will be smitten....

Smote.

Alright, the video is so stupid that I'll bite.

First of all, you have to remember that the Bible was written 2000 years ago with the intended readers being the people of the time, not you and I. As a result, it made sense that it would incorporate the common misconceptions and inaccuracies that existed. If you started talking about the scientific and geological things we know today, no one would have understood or believed it. Today, we can look back and realize that they didn't have the equipment or knowledge to understand much of what they were experiencing.

You'll be hard pressed to find a book today that doesn't have mistakes or won't have inaccuracies in a few years time. If you look at many scientific books from just 50 years ago, they seem ridiculous considering what we know today. But they are no less important. They were the building blocks that got us here.

In addition, if you want to get technical, the belief is that the Bible was written by authors who were inspired by God. God himself, didn't sit down and write it. Specially chosen people, much like you or I, were given the task. They put things in their own words and incorporated their traditions and understandings of the world around them. They were human like us and they made mistakes.

Secondly, parts like Genesis and Noah are not supposed to be taken literally. They're meant to teach a simple lesson through creative stories that are meant to entertain while they teach. People didn't have TV or video games. They had a rich oral tradition.

If you hand someone today a dry book of purely historical facts and a more entertaining book with places, events, and characters that incorporates those same facts, which are they more likely to read? The entertaining book. And it was the same then.

The messages are important, not the way that are conveyed.

As such, people who take the stores literally and reject the scientific evidence of today are idiots. There really is no reason to.

Third, Penn describes the flood that the Bible may be talking about and then a few seconds later he says there is no evidence. ??? The Noah story may very well be an exaggeration of that scientifically proven event. So, the writers of the Bible took that story and either wrote it as they knew it or exaggerated it in order to teach a lesson.

The same with the Red and Reed Sea. The people of the time didn't know that there was some wind that could dry the sea allowing them to cross. They thought it was an intervention from God and wrote it as such.

Fourth, the punishments of the time were much harsher than today and for good reason. The tribes of Israel were small and living in a much more dangerous time than today. Anything that threatened them or the traditional family structure had to be dealt with and dealt with severely.

Today, with our huge population, fairly stable lives, and prisons, it's easy to say that those punishments are harsh and contradictory. Back then it wasn't. To use the example in the video, homosexuality was a huge threat because it didn't result in the creation of the next generation - people who were needed to take care of the community, fight, etc. If a large portion of the population was engaging in homosexual acts, the tribes would never have been able to grow fast enough to become a strong enough nation to defend themselves from the strong, aggressive nations that surrounded them.

Order and discipline had to be largely maintained through fear rather than actual punishment. How many disobedient sons were actually stoned? Probably very few. Sons were highly valued and needed.

Fifth, they breeze through the 10 Commandments in the video without ever actually examining them. Are any of them really ridiculous? Should stealing, killing,or adultery be acceptable? How about putting money (a potential idol) over family?


So, the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. There are exaggerations, inaccuracies, and mistakes. But they are understandable considering the time period and they do not take away from the solid moral beliefs that can be found - beliefs that are society is still build on today.

The Bible should not be read as historical fact nor should it be held to those standards. The Bible is a book meant to entertain while it teaches important moral values. Some of the situations seem ridiculous. Some of the punishments seem cruel. But those were the building blocks of the science and justice system of today.

There is much value to be gained from the Bible even if you don't believe in Jesus or God. There are many moral codes and lessons that few can argue against. And many people have found strength and peace through it.


Edited to add: Oh yeah. Jeffro, you can take your stupid Penn & Teller YouTube video and shove it up your ass. Having to really on those two freaks to explain your shitty beliefs just shows your stupidity and laziness before anyone even takes a look at the video. Next time, use parts of the video(s) to support your own thoughts, rather than relying solely on it. Perhaps, you'll save yourself some of the embarrassment you received here.

That may seem pretty doubtful to many of the people who have viewed this thread, but what does he have to lose at this point, folks?

Originally Posted by Evil

Alright, the video is so stupid that I'll bite.

First of all, you have to remember that the Bible was written 2000 years ago with the intended readers being the people of the time, not you and I. As a result, it made sense that it would incorporate the common misconceptions and inaccuracies that existed. If you started talking about the scientific and geological things we know today, no one would have understood or believed it. Today, we can look back and realize that they didn't have the equipment or knowledge to understand much of what they were experiencing.

Then you would agree that in order to fit in the contexts of the modern world, it is deserving of at least a re-write?

You'll be hard pressed to find a book today that doesn't have mistakes or won't have inaccuracies in a few years time. If you look at many scientific books from just 50 years ago, they seem ridiculous considering what we know today. But they are no less important. They were the building blocks that got us here.

Such mistakes are often rectified in later versions, or in new books (the old ones being keep only for nostalgia's sake and historical value). The Bible has had 2000 years for this to happen, and to date, I haven't seen anything done to it besides the routine translation into another language.

In addition, if you want to get technical, the belief is that the Bible was written by authors who were inspired by God. God himself, didn't sit down and write it. Specially chosen people, much like you or I, were given the task. They put things in their own words and incorporated their traditions and understandings of the world around them. They were human like us and they made mistakes.

Fine, but if one takes into account of God's divine plan (in which every conceivable detail has already been laid out, including every word in the Bibile) and His supposed omnipotence, that still means that God, both then and now, supports a belief system that is harsh and unforgiving, and given the lack of any sort of revision, means that He doesn't seem to care that the book has been abused and used as a pretext for people to expand their control over others.

Secondly, parts like Genesis and Noah are not supposed to be taken literally. They're meant to teach a simple lesson through creative stories that are meant to entertain while they teach. People didn't have TV or video games. They had a rich oral tradition.

An acceptable point. But it's not us you have to convince of its validity; it's the Christians whom you have to explain this to. They're the ones who believe it.

If you hand someone today a dry book of purely historical facts and a more entertaining book with places, events, and characters that incorporates those same facts, which are they more likely to read? The entertaining book. And it was the same then.

That is no excuse for ignoring the truth. If you've been called to testify in court where a man's life is at stake, do you tell the truth (however boring, horrible, or terrifying it might be), or do you make up some fanciful, exciting tale that hasn't a shred of truth to it?

There is no excuse.

The messages are important, not the way that are conveyed.

So it is not important that a message may be spread via lies and exaggerations? It is not important that it may have been forced into the minds of those who were unwilling to accept it?

As such, people who take the stores literally and reject the scientific evidence of today are idiots. There really is no reason to.

Happy we agree there.

Third, Penn describes the flood that the Bible may be talking about and then a few seconds later he says there is no evidence. ??? The Noah story may very well be an exaggeration of that scientifically proven event. So, the writers of the Bible took that story and either wrote it as they knew it or exaggerated it in order to teach a lesson.

No evidence that the flood as described in the Bible has been found, meaning that there is no geological or historical evidence of a real world-scale flood. Penn does however show that there is evidence of a smaller flood, which likely served as the basis for the story.

And while it is a story, you still have to contend with the fact that there are many people who believe it to be pure fact.

The same with the Red and Reed Sea. The people of the time didn't know that there was some wind that could dry the sea allowing them to cross. They thought it was an intervention from God and wrote it as such.

Then rewrite the damn book to take into account what we know today!

Fourth, the punishments of the time were much harsher than today and for good reason. The tribes of Israel were small and living in a much more dangerous time than today. Anything that threatened them or the traditional family structure had to be dealt with and dealt with severely.

Today, with our huge population, fairly stable lives, and prisons, it's easy to say that those punishments are harsh and contradictory. Back then it wasn't. To use the example in the video, homosexuality was a huge threat because it didn't result in the creation of the next generation - people who were needed to take care of the community, fight, etc. If a large portion of the population was engaging in homosexual acts, the tribes would never have been able to grow fast enough to become a strong enough nation to defend themselves from the strong, aggressive nations that surrounded them.

Order and discipline had to be largely maintained through fear rather than actual punishment. How many disobedient sons were actually stoned? Probably very few. Sons were highly valued and needed.

Again, the book is in need of a revision to account for the advances society has made. It is unacceptable for a book that is held as holy by hundreds of millions to preach values that go against everything mankind has worked to achieve.

Fifth, they breeze through the 10 Commandments in the video without ever actually examining them. Are any of them really ridiculous? Should stealing, killing,or adultery be acceptable? How about putting money (a potential idol) over family?

Can't argue with you there. While I think the point he makes about popularity doesn't make something right, it doesn't do much to "debunk" the Commandments.

In fact, I believe Carlin would be a better man for the job:

YouTube - George Carlin - Ten Commandments

So, the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. There are exaggerations, inaccuracies, and mistakes. But they are understandable considering the time period and they do not take away from the solid moral beliefs that can be found - beliefs that are society is still build on today.

The Bible should not be read as historical fact nor should it be held to those standards. The Bible is a book meant to entertain while it teaches important moral values. Some of the situations seem ridiculous. Some of the punishments seem cruel. But those were the building blocks of the science and justice system of today.

There is much value to be gained from the Bible even if you don't believe in Jesus or God. There are many moral codes and lessons that few can argue against. And many people have found strength and peace through it.

Like I said, it is in need of a revision to account for the advances society has made.

Perhaps a "disclaimer" would be a good addition, too.

The bible sucks and so do you.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Perhaps a "disclaimer" would be a good addition, too.

Something like that, yes.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Then you would agree that in order to fit in the contexts of the modern world, it is deserving of at least a re-write?

Yep. I proposed that very idea back in April as I've recopied below:

Originally Posted by Evil

The Bible like everything else, must grow and change with time. A lot of stuff from 2000 years ago is not going to apply today or seem ridiculous to us. Obviously, stoning people and the like is not going to acceptable in today's world when we have complex legal systems, police, and a belief in justice.

I feel that The Bible should be rewritten by scholars to make more sense in today's world and to limit the misinterpretations. However, too many people would reject the notion because they wrongly believe that everything needs to be taken literally and word for word.

http://devioustyrant.com/10631-islam...tml#post263856

I really hope your not going to base your argument against me with an idea I in fact proposed. :lol:

Let's see...

Originally Posted by Nuke

Such mistakes are often rectified in later versions, or in new books (the old ones being keep only for nostalgia's sake and historical value). The Bible has had 2000 years for this to happen, and to date, I haven't seen anything done to it besides the routine translation into another language.

This sounds familiar. :lol:

Originally Posted by Nuke

Fine, but if one takes into account of God's divine plan (in which every conceivable detail has already been laid out, including every word in the Bibile) and His supposed omnipotence, that still means that God, both then and now, supports a belief system that is harsh and unforgiving, and given the lack of any sort of revision, means that He doesn't seem to care that the book has been abused and used as a pretext for people to expand their control over others.

In the so called Divine Plan, everything has not been laid out. Don't forget that every person has the gift of free will. This includes the authors of the Bible and the leaders of the Church who have the ultimate say on how things are interpreted and whether the Bible can be updated and revised.

If a God exists, he rarely intervenes in human affairs. For the most part he lets us figure things out for ourselves. I suppose that's what he wants.

He could easily come down and tell everyone to do this or that. I'm sure that he has his reasons for not doing so. Perhaps this is some sort of test. I don't know.

And I'm sure that people who abuse the Bible will get what they deserve. Sooner or later.

Originally Posted by Nuke

An acceptable point. But it's not us you have to convince of its validity; it's the Christians whom you have to explain this to. They're the ones who believe it.

Alrighty, let me know when they show up.

Originally Posted by Nuke

That is no excuse for ignoring the truth. If you've been called to testify in court where a man's life is at stake, do you tell the truth (however boring, horrible, or terrifying it might be), or do you make up some fanciful, exciting tale that hasn't a shred of truth to it?

There is no excuse.

Nice try but your example is flawed.

The goal of our court system is to process cases as fast and as accurately as possible. This means that ideally, everyone who testifies will stick to the facts without any exaggeration or fluff. It's dry, it's boring, but it's conveyed that way due to time constraints. Few people, who are not forced or required, view these types of cases.

The exception are the TV court shows. They encourage the litigants to exaggerate and add fluff. Why? It attracts more people because it is more interesting.

And that brings me back to my original point. If people have the option of listening to a court case were a person just sticks to the facts and a TV show where they add in some exaggerations, which are they likely to chose? The TV show by far.

And the Bible has employed the same tactics as the TV shows. If you add in some exaggeration and relatable stories, more people are likely to read it and more importantly - understand it. So, your message reaches more people. And that's the ultimate goal - spreading your important messages to everyone in ways they can understand.

Originally Posted by Nuke

So it is not important that a message may be spread via lies and exaggerations? It is not important that it may have been forced into the minds of those who were unwilling to accept it?

Exaggerations are not important. They're based in truth.

Lies are important. But in the case of the Bible, I think what some may call lies, are really just misunderstandings or inaccuracies resulting from the time period.

How can you force anything into someone's mind? You really can't. A person can act one way, because you force them to, but they may truly think something completely different. You can never know what someone is thinking.

Originally Posted by Nuke

No evidence that the flood as described in the Bible has been found, meaning that there is no geological or historical evidence of a real world-scale flood. Penn does however show that there is evidence of a smaller flood, which likely served as the basis for the story.

And while it is a story, you still have to contend with the fact that there are many people who believe it to be pure fact.

As I said, those people are idiots. It's not meant to be taken literally.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Then rewrite the damn book to take into account what we know today!

Yeah, I've already suggested that.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Again, the book is in need of a revision to account for the advances society has made. It is unacceptable for a book that is held as holy by hundreds of millions to preach values that go against everything mankind has worked to achieve.

Yeah, I've already suggested that.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Can't argue with you there. While I think the point he makes about popularity doesn't make something right, it doesn't do much to "debunk" the Commandments.

In fact, I believe Carlin would be a better man for the job:

YouTube - George Carlin - Ten Commandments

Starts off funny but then gets ridiculous.

The importance of the first three is clear. You should devote your energy to following one God and one set of teachings. In order to do so, you need to respect your creator. You can't try to hold yourself above him by using derogatory terms. You need to leave time for your body and mind to heal as well as to explore your spiritual side.

He makes a good point about the honoring your parents. I suppose that it is implied. If you honor them, they should honor you and vice versa.

How can you combine stealing and lying? Stealing in many cases does not involve dishonestly. If I grab a case of beer and run out of a store without paying, there is no dishonestly there. It's theft - a separate issue.

Committing adultery and coveting someone's wife are also too separate things. You can commit adultery without prior fantasizing. But if you do fantasize, you're more likely to take an opportunity that presents itself in the future. I suppose these two can be combined but they shouldn't be reduced to one simple word. The importance here is in the explanation. You lose all the meaning when you reduce them to: "Don't be unfaithful".

Coveting goods goes beyond simple possessions. You can fantasize about copying someone's life or lifestyle in ways that are simply impossible. That can get you in all sorts of trouble.

Killing seems simple but is not. You may have to kill in self-defense. You may have to kill to save someone else. You have to use some common sense here. Pick up a law enforcement handbook, and you'll find pages and pages explaining various circumstances with murders and homicides. Does he expect that all of that should have been included?

And yeah, there have been many unjustifiable wars and killings in the name of God. And those were wrong.

Killing is wrong. The mistakes of people in the past does not lessen the truth of that.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Like I said, it is in need of a revision to account for the advances society has made.

Yeah, I've already suggested that.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Perhaps a "disclaimer" would be a good addition, too.

I don't see why you would need one after all the effort it would take to convince the necessary people that a revision would be good...

...but alright.

Trying to find a true believer on DT is like trying to find an atheist in the Pope's entourage.