Thread: Accidental ban lift?

Originally Posted by Evil

Yep. I proposed that very idea back in April as I've recopied below

Forgive me if I don't keep permanent tabs on every single post made by every single member since the inception of this forum. 230,542 posts is a little too much for me to remember. If this is what you expect of an admin, I suggest you try looking for such a trait elsewhere, though I do caution it will be a long search.

In the so called Divine Plan, everything has not been laid out. Don't forget that every person has the gift of free will. This includes the authors of the Bible and the leaders of the Church who have the ultimate say on how things are interpreted and whether the Bible can be updated and revised.

If a God exists, he rarely intervenes in human affairs. For the most part he lets us figure things out for ourselves. I suppose that's what he wants.

If he rarely intervenes, then what the fuck is the point of the Divine Plan? You don't make an effort to lay out the course of the human race then all of a sudden say "fuck it, let them figure it out." Unless of course everything has been laid out, which is what is preached by every Christian I've ever come across (and yes, I know, not all Christians believe in the same exact set of details; the Christian faith is more broken than a glass vase that's just been dropped from six miles up).

But for a moment, we'll entertain the idea that he doesn't intervene. You mean to tell me that this "all-powerful" divine being, who is all-seeing, all-knowing, and divinely omnipotent, actually permits humans to do all nature of horrible things, both to Him and to each other? Strikes me as though this "god" is pretty fucking lazy, and pretty fucking ignorant for being tasked with over-seeing/controlling an entire world. Smells like "incompetence" to me, although you have to get past the stench of all the bullshit in order to smell it.

He could easily come down and tell everyone to do this or that. I'm sure that he has his reasons for not doing so. Perhaps this is some sort of test. I don't know.

Oh, he could. And you know this how -- he told you over a cup of tea?

And I'm sure that people who abuse the Bible will get what they deserve. Sooner or later.

Frankly, I can't wait for organizations like the Catholic Church to finally pay for the suffering that they have caused throughout history. And don't argue that the Church is one of the greatest proponents of humans rights, blah blah blah. There can be no atonement for things like the Inquisition.

Alrighty, let me know when they show up.

:Y:

Nice try but your example is flawed.

The goal of our court system is to process cases as fast and as accurately as possible. This means that ideally, everyone who testifies will stick to the facts without any exaggeration or fluff. It's dry, it's boring, but it's conveyed that way due to time constraints. Few people, who are not forced or required, view these types of cases.

The exception are the TV court shows. They encourage the litigants to exaggerate and add fluff. Why? It attracts more people because it is more interesting.

And that brings me back to my original point. If people have the option of listening to a court case were a person just sticks to the facts and a TV show where they add in some exaggerations, which are they likely to chose? The TV show by far.

And the Bible has employed the same tactics as the TV shows. If you add in some exaggeration and relatable stories, more people are likely to read it and more importantly - understand it. So, your message reaches more people. And that's the ultimate goal - spreading your important messages to everyone in ways they can understand.

Quit dancing around my fucking point. Yes, the Bible is a giant show designed to draw people in, but just because something is more fanciful or interesting or beautiful doesn't make it right. To say that it does is an affirmation that lying and deception are acceptable practices.

If you cannot grasp that, then consider this: Someone comes to you and tries to convince you to join their cause (the cause being irrelevant in this case). To do so, he tell you a magnificent story (or set of stories) that would captivate any audience. And you believe the story. It promises many wonderful things and asks for relatively little (say, you refuse to eat a certain type of food, or you give up one work day out of the week; something that is an easy price for you to pay). In fact, it's win-win for you to join this individual's cause; there's nothing to lose, and what you can gain is perhaps the best reward ever offered by anyone to anyone. And you accept. You believe this story, and you spread it to others, and they, being so fascinated by it, also join the cause.

You have taken something and embraced it fully, and perhaps even have devoted your life to it. You've raised your children to believe and cherish it, too. But what happens when you finally realize that the story you were told was really just a cover for something else? That you were brought on board something that, had you been told directly, truthfully, factually, what is was, you wouldn't have otherwise cared for? How's that going to make you feel? I know I would feel as though I'd been robbed, among other things.

My point -- if you can grasp it -- is that if you are going to ask people to become involved in something that means a total reshaping of an individual's life, then you tell the story as it is, not something that is designed to just make it look better.

Exaggerations are not important. They're based in truth.

But exaggerations cannot replace truth.

Lies are important. But in the case of the Bible, I think what some may call lies, are really just misunderstandings or inaccuracies resulting from the time period.

Some are lies, some are misunderstandings. It doesn't matter which. What does matter is that they are still being taken for fact, and that is wrong.

How can you force anything into someone's mind? You really can't. A person can act one way, because you force them to, but they may truly think something completely different. You can never know what someone is thinking.

Oh yes you can. It doesn't matter if it is fake or the real deal, even so much as to attempt to forcibly persuade someone to adopt your beliefs is an insult to humanity.

The importance of the first three is clear. You should devote your energy to following one God and one set of teachings. In order to do so, you need to respect your creator. You can't try to hold yourself above him by using derogatory terms. You need to leave time for your body and mind to heal as well as to explore your spiritual side.

In other words: I am the only boss, there can be no one else who can share the absolute power I have over you, nor can there be anyone else who may have claim to the power to which I hold over you; You must respect every single thing I do, and every value I hold, at face-value, whether you agree with it or not; You must not use a certain set of adjectives, nouns, verbs, et cetera, because I don't like the way they sound.

While there are good points mixed in with the Commandments (adultery, murder, and so forth), the rest reminds me of a Christian version of legalism, or perhaps Sharial law, just with a look of make up to make it look pretty and to hide its true intent.

It doesn't matter how good something may be. If it is used by certain individuals as a way of controlling others, and if this instrument is being used in a deceptive manner (i.e. the real, factual, no-bullshit story is the only story there is), then it is wrong.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Forgive me if I don't keep permanent tabs on every single post made by every single member since the inception of this forum. 230,542 posts is a little too much for me to remember. If this is what you expect of an admin, I suggest you try looking for such a trait elsewhere, though I do caution it will be a long search.

I'm amused that you took my simple statement (that I had proposed the same idea previously) and twisted it in your mind into an attack against your admin abilities.

When did I say that you should read and remember every post? When did I even say that you should remember that specific post? I even when out of my way to find the specific post and recopy it for you so you would now what I was talking about. :nuts:

I suppose that I've unintentionally unearthed some long-standing insecurities. :lol:

Originally Posted by Nuke

If he rarely intervenes, then what the fuck is the point of the Divine Plan? You don't make an effort to lay out the course of the human race then all of a sudden say "fuck it, let them figure it out." Unless of course everything has been laid out, which is what is preached by every Christian I've ever come across (and yes, I know, not all Christians believe in the same exact set of details; the Christian faith is more broken than a glass vase that's just been dropped from six miles up).

Where do you come up with this shit? Seriously, you clearly don't even know what your talking about.

There's supposed to be a divine plan laid out for each of us. If you follow the teachings and make the right choices based on the moral thing to do, the plan will be fulfilled.

We're not talking about the idea of fate where the entire history of humanity has already been set. It's on the individual level where freewill can alter what is "supposed" to occur.

Originally Posted by Nuke

But for a moment, we'll entertain the idea that he doesn't intervene. You mean to tell me that this "all-powerful" divine being, who is all-seeing, all-knowing, and divinely omnipotent, actually permits humans to do all nature of horrible things, both to Him and to each other? Strikes me as though this "god" is pretty fucking lazy, and pretty fucking ignorant for being tasked with over-seeing/controlling an entire world. Smells like "incompetence" to me, although you have to get past the stench of all the bullshit in order to smell it.

He does intervene but as I said, he does so rarely. Remember when he sent his only son to die for our sins?

He acts something like a good parent. He sets guidelines but allows us to make mistakes. He also helps us to see and rectify those mistakes.

If he just intervened all the time and prevented us from making mistakes before they happened, no one would learn and grow. And that's the point of all this. To take what he has given us and expand it.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Oh, he could. And you know this how -- he told you over a cup of tea?

Because he has done so before. Come on Nuke. Moses? Mary? Jesus?

When he needs to intervene, he does.

Originally Posted by Nuke

There can be no atonement for things like the Inquisition.

Sure there can. Why can't there be?

Originally Posted by Nuke

Quit dancing around my fucking point.

There's no "dancing" on my end. It seems that I know must spell everything out for your simple mind and you have some strong desire for further embarrassment.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Yes, the Bible is a giant show designed to draw people in, but just because something is more fanciful or interesting or beautiful doesn't make it right. To say that it does is an affirmation that lying and deception are acceptable practices.

You clearly don't understand the difference between lying and exaggeration.

Originally Posted by Nuke

But exaggerations cannot replace truth.

Exaggerations are just truths that have been embellished for effect. In the big picture, the fact that something has been embellished, has little impact. The meaning is the same - it is just easier to see.

Originally Posted by Nuke

If you cannot grasp that, then consider this: Someone comes to you and tries to convince you to join their cause (the cause being irrelevant in this case). To do so, he tell you a magnificent story (or set of stories) that would captivate any audience. And you believe the story. It promises many wonderful things and asks for relatively little (say, you refuse to eat a certain type of food, or you give up one work day out of the week; something that is an easy price for you to pay). In fact, it's win-win for you to join this individual's cause; there's nothing to lose, and what you can gain is perhaps the best reward ever offered by anyone to anyone. And you accept. You believe this story, and you spread it to others, and they, being so fascinated by it, also join the cause.

You have taken something and embraced it fully, and perhaps even have devoted your life to it. You've raised your children to believe and cherish it, too.

So far, that's a pretty good summary of how the Christian religion spread, just as you intended it to be.

Now for the giant leap:

Originally Posted by Nuke

But what happens when you finally realize that the story you were told was really just a cover for something else?

What exactly is the Bible trying to cover up?

The promise has remained the same. You were created by God, God wants you to follow a certain set of guidelines, if you follow the guidelines you will go to a place of eternal bliss.

Originally Posted by Nuke

That you were brought on board something that, had you been told directly, truthfully, factually, what is was, you wouldn't have otherwise cared for? How's that going to make you feel? I know I would feel as though I'd been robbed, among other things.

The stories that were presented as fact were told as truthfully and accurately as the authors could.

There are also many parables and other stories that were made up by Jesus and others to teach a lesson. They were never presented as fact. They were just designed to incorporate the traditions and daily life of the people they were told to so they could more easily understand the lesson.

So, why would you feel robbed? Because you don't understand that people 2000 years ago didn't have the technology, skills, and record keeping of today? Or because you can't tell the difference between a story meant to describe a real event and a story made up to teach a lesson?

Originally Posted by Nuke

My point -- if you can grasp it -- is that if you are going to ask people to become involved in something that means a total reshaping of an individual's life, then you tell the story as it is, not something that is designed to just make it look better.

They did try to tell it as it is.

To go back to an example presented in the original video, the people living during the time didn't know that a wind could come along and quickly dry out a portion of a sea. I didn't even know that until I heard it in the video. They believed it had to be another act of God - and it very well might have. Why couldn't God have intervened through nature to make sure that drying occurred at the exact right time?

If you exaggerate something for entertainment or effect, you're not altering the something in any significant way. What did it matter if Goliath was 20 feet tall or 7? He was much larger than the young David. That's all they wanted to show.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Some are lies, some are misunderstandings. It doesn't matter which. What does matter is that they are still being taken for fact, and that is wrong.

Lies and misunderstandings are not the same thing. If you truly belief something and tell what you believe to other, you're not lying to them.

And you keep bringing up that same world: lie. Give me an example of a lie in the Bible that can not be explained by the so-called lie being an exaggeration, a misunderstanding, or an obviously made up story intended to teach a lesson.

Originally Posted by Nuke

Oh yes you can. It doesn't matter if it is fake or the real deal, even so much as to attempt to forcibly persuade someone to adopt your beliefs is an insult to humanity.

:lol:

Then, all laws are in an insult to humanity. I guess we shouldn't have any laws, aye Nuke? Just let everyone run around doing whatever they want.

More flawed logic.

Originally Posted by Nuke

In other words: I am the only boss, there can be no one else who can share the absolute power I have over you, nor can there be anyone else who may have claim to the power to which I hold over you; You must respect every single thing I do, and every value I hold, at face-value, whether you agree with it or not; You must not use a certain set of adjectives, nouns, verbs, et cetera, because I don't like the way they sound.

Absolute power? He gives each of us free will. He rarely intervenes.

No one else does have the same position or power over humans. We have only one creator.

It's not the way the words sound. It's what they mean. You can use those words when referring to your creator, you're in essence saying that you have power and control over him. And that's the point. It's not the words - it's that belief that you have the power of a creator.


Are you really too retarded to comprehend this on your own? Damn, this is supposed to be the simple stuff.

Six year olds can get it but Nuke over here is having major trouble. :lol:

Originally Posted by Nuke

While there are good points mixed in with the Commandments (adultery, murder, and so forth), the rest reminds me of a Christian version of legalism, or perhaps Sharial law, just with a look of make up to make it look pretty and to hide its true intent.

It doesn't matter how good something may be. If it is used by certain individuals as a way of controlling others, and if this instrument is being used in a deceptive manner (i.e. the real, factual, no-bullshit story is the only story there is), then it is wrong.

Sharial law? I guess you mean Sharia - the Islamic law.

Have you ever actually read some of the Qur'an? Or are just ignorant and just believe whatever the media or some loud dipshit says about it?

It is, in fact, much more strict with many more complicated (and what I would argue are useless) procedures than the Bible.

The Bible is and has been used by some individuals for their own selfish objectives. There's no denying that. But so many more people have found peace, strength, and hope through it.

How can something from 2000 years ago be 100% factual? As I said before, pick up a science book from 50, 10, or even 5 years ago and you will find mistakes. Science books, which are supposed to be as factual as you can get, have misunderstandings and inaccuracies that can deceive others. They also commonly use simple explanations and diagrams which often due not fully describe what we know. Isn't that deceptive? Then, why do they do it? Because they want to make them easier for the average person to understand.

So, why should we hold a 2000 year old Bible to these impossible standards that nothing written today can even meet?

Christians, fundamentalists, or semantics.

The idea of God is too complex.

Unless you're an illiterate half-wit, the idea of God is pretty simple. Fantasy boogey man makes the world and we all have to behave within a rigid immovable structure of archaic rules and regulations or we're damned to an eternity in Hell. The End.

Originally Posted by Evil

So, why should we hold a 2000 year old Bible to these impossible standards that nothing written today can even meet?

The thing is, no one is holding the Bible to any standard. To do that, you have to challenge it. And if you do that, well... have fun spending an eternity in flame and suffering.

:Y: