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Thread: Vexon praise undeserved
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08-27-10, 03:36 PM #1
Vexon praise undeserved
Continuation of comments from http://www.teamplayergaming.com/show...quired/page136
Agree.
What good is it for the Commander to hide away from his assets?
What good is it for the Commander to hide at the Suburbs - a primary objective for the US?
A Commander should be near his assets to protect and repair them.
There are plenty of places for a Commander to hide near his assets, especially at the Factory, and for him to aid in its defense.
As an Engr, you could mine the approaches to the flag. Even as a Sniper, your Gaymores would be more useful protecting the Factory flag.
The Factory is *THE* main flag for MEC and should be defended at all costs. For the Commander to be elsewhere is just stupid, regardless how clever his hiding spot is.
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08-27-10, 05:52 PM #2
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
A commander not where one "expects" him to be is much less likely to be hunted down and killed or disturbed by the enemy team, especially if the "home flag" is prone to intrusion by the enemy (eg, Factory flag on Karkand, Refinery on Dragon, the Gas Stations on Mashtuur, etc.). A commander is useless to his team while he's out of his CO map: he can't provide intel, he can't lay down orders, he can't communicate to individual squads, he can't effectively deploy assets. Staying in the map is key to being an effective commander.
A commander is typically alone at his main, and as a lone soldier, is fairly ineffective at stopping, twarting or even slowing down an enemy advance, especially one supported by armor or air power. And again, a CO's job is to stay alive and stay in his map as long as possible. If an enemy force comes into the main flag, a CO's best option is to run and hide and call for reinforcements, not run out onto the field guns blazing and die. Repairing assets may be expeditious, but again working on repair duty takes a metric-butt-ton of time away from being in the CO map; most CO's will elect instead to either assign the inevitable support squad recalled to defend the main to repair duty or drop a supply box rather than work a wrench for ~3 minutes getting his assets back up.
There are too many approaches to the Factory flag for a single Engineer's mine-set to cover the possibilities, and it's ludicrous to think that anyone getting a vehicle back there doesn't have infantry support with them (or shortly on the way with a green spawn). The mines, they do nothing. Same with claymores: a single Sniper's mine-set would only serve to annoy any reasonable attempt at the flag, not stop it.
Factory is a key flag for the MEC, true enough, but there are tactics and strategies that do not rely on holding it for the entire round. If the US are inattentive, the MEC can retreat across the river to the western flags and set up a defense of Square and Suburb that is exceptionally hard to break, and then take a sneak back to the US main and steal the armor. The MEC can use the same destroy-and-delay tactics to trap the US on the eastern side of the river with no hope of resupply or replenishment for lost armor; at that point, the US has to choose either to start spawning forces back at the main, and lose the man-advantage in defending the river (allowing the MEC to push back across and reclaim the flags) or continue to attrition tickets in the river stalemate. The MEC river defense only works because the entire MEC team can spawn on that side of the river and contribute to the effort: if even one squad tries to push out and move back across, the extra ticket loss will quickly cost them the game. In short, Factory is very important to the MEC effort, but not so essential that every man, woman and child must throw themselves upon the battlements to keep out the enemy.
I know where all the hiding spots for a CO are at Factory, as do a great deal of other people. Anyone in those spots who allows an enemy squad into the flag area is going to get a face full of knife and is going to lose the initiative in having to respawn elsewhere and get himself reoriented on the battle. Finding a clever spot and being able to stay in the CO map is key to winning.
Draco
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08-27-10, 06:49 PM #3
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
I had talkos trying to hunt me down in my teams main base when i was commanding but he couldnt find me because I didnt stay in the main. i was spec ops in the middle of a feild south of my main behind a tree. Picking obscure places to hide as a commander means you have more time to stay alive to help your team. Supply boxes are perfect for repairing assets if your team isnt really asking for them.
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08-27-10, 06:59 PM #4Re: Vexon praise undeserved
For Karkand, as long as the ticket losses can be controlled, as long as MEC controls all flags on their side of the river, they can win by attrition. I have seen countless MEC SLs try to ford that river and retake train again and again and again, or even just a MEC team that continually wastes tickets trying to cap and hold hotel causing a massive ticket loss and round loss, even if they started out with a good lead until the stalemate.
It is much harder for MEC to win if they lose their side of the river because they not only lose all of their assets (if the opposing team is any good), but they also are vulnerable to squads spawning in at US uncap and attacking the rear (that is ostensibly now facing the river), especially if US are able to sneak around to suburb and 2prong offense from there; as well as being overly vulnerable to US assets and armor. I have not really seen too many rounds where MEC loses their side of the river base and can manage to keep US assets suppressed at the uncap while being able to manage enough tickets to win. (this is provided they have given up on retaking the original MEC side)Last edited by [CoFR]SirMoo; 08-27-10 at 07:11 PM.
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08-28-10, 12:08 AM #5
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
HAH!
Unless the US team is a bunch of noobs or the MEC is ahead by 100 pts or there's less than a few minutes left, if the MEC losses the Factory, they lose the round <period>. With no Factory, the MEC have no assets and no Armor! In 5 years, I've never seen the MEC win such a scenario!
What good is an alive Commander, if the Factory is gone along with the assets? A Commander respawns in 10 seconds. You can't retake a flag in the same time. Unless the US is just plain stupid, there will be Spec Ops keeping assets down and eagerly awaiting those Supply drops!
As a 'defending' Commander, I've killed APCs and HUMMV's with the TOW as they race in and saving the Factory. Even if I don't survive, I've bought enough time for help to arrive. Mines place stategically, block avenues of approach and force an enemy taking the 'wrong' route to detour. Anything that even delay's an enemy's taking of the Factory is better than nothing!
The Factory is SO essential that a good MEC team can win by just holding the Factory! The same cannot be said of the same MEC team holding any other single flag.Last edited by Sgt.TmH; 08-28-10 at 12:22 AM.
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08-28-10, 12:49 AM #6
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
Yes, the assumption is it's not something that's set up in 30 seconds. Say, if the MEC don't have a commander at the outset and a sneaking US APC heads down the train tracks and gets into the backfield with no one watching. The MEC can win in that situation, with some smart play and a little luck. Unfortunately, what happens most times is that the MEC instead go absolutely ape-shit that Factory was taken and lose all the western flags and 100+ tickets trying to recapture Factory, only to get pidgeon-holed on a few eastern flags with a significant US presense across the river.
Head to Square, head to Suburb. They're devils to attack with the right kind of population.
The MEC armor takes at least 20-30 seconds to bring up from the spawn to the river, much less to the western flags. That's why the MEC typically lose all the western flags anyway: they can't replace their armor losses at those flags as fast as the US can. When the US is heavily invested in Factory, the opposite is true. The US are the ones far from their own armor spawns, and in that case they have no hope of getting any armor replacements at all. So if they're on Factory, they have a choice: either try to stay on the flag and hold off the MEC with no armor (while the MEC inevitably go back and steal the US armor), or start spawning back at their uncap to bring up their armor for a pincer move, but also decrease their man-to-man advantage across the river and give up an opening for the MEC to retake the eastern side of the river.
It's a classic study in a force outrunning its logistics. The US can take Factory all they like, but they have no wherewithal to hold onto it. They must either burn tickets and manpower holding it against inevitability, or retreat and reconsider. That's why Karkand stalemates across the river so often: that's the turning point where both the US and MEC have equal ground in being able to replenish their losses of armor. Taking Factory removes the US' ability to replace armor, but doesn't present nearly so much difficulty to the MEC, who can simply repurpose the US uncap's armor spawns.
What good is an alive Commander, if the Factory is gone along with the assets? A Commander respawns in 10 seconds. You can't retake a flag in the same time.
An alive CO can still deploy what assets he does have, he can still issue orders, he can still talk to individual squads, he can still manually spot. He's still in the game. A dead CO can do nothing but wait for his respawn timer to expire or castigate his SLs in the CO channel.
Unless the US is just plain stupid, there will be Spec Ops keeping assets down and eagerly awaiting those Supply drops!
As a 'defending' Commander, I've killed APCs and HUMMV's with the TOW as they race in and saving the Factory. Even if I don't survive, I've bought enough time for help to arrive. Mines place stategically, block avenues of approach and force an enemy taking the 'wrong' route to detour. Anything that even delay's an enemy's taking of the Factory is better than nothing!
The Factory is SO essential that a good MEC team can win by just holding the Factory!
Then you strike when they have nowhere left to go.
Draco
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08-28-10, 06:18 PM #7
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
Apparently you have not seen some of the teams I've been on or commanded for on this server. Despite what you may think because you've never seen it done, does not make it impossible. I've been on teams that have managed it.
And if I have the right squad members with me, you will not be kicking us off a flag that I have told our squad to defend the hell out of. Just so happens, about a week ago, the chinese decided to lose a round on Daqing Oil trying to retake West Oil Field. They bled themselves pretty good trying to take West from my squad. A lot of people don't think that flag is very important, in my eyes, it is more important than East Oil. But that is because I play the map from a Ground Pounders Viewpoint instead of from the Chopper Viewpoint.
There are quite a few flags that people seem to think matter way too much. Factory on Karkand, while important is not necessary for either team to win. Same goes for TV Station on Sharqi. Gas Station on Tampa. And the worst meat grinder flag of all time is; Central Island on Zatar, that flag doesn't mean a whole lot while you have a bleed out going against your team.****************11B*************** Look for Pathfinder75thB in TeamSpeak! ***************11B*****************
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08-29-10, 06:21 PM #8
Re: Vexon praise undeserved
Other players have rightfully commented on the error of your arguments in general. Regarding the specific example, i.e., you calling out a particular player in a round, how do you know he wasn't already out in the field at the Suburb and took the CO job when he saw no one else was doing it? In that scenario, you find the best place you can at the time and command. If you die, then you can respawn at a different location of your choosing.
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