What is baiting? (Read my post fully before commenting please.)

**Affinity** · 07-15-12, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Scotzo

I've been saying this for a long time, but it hasn't quite caught on.....

"There's no flank until the bomb is planted." - Scotzo

Probably because there is most definitely a flank if you are in a bomb site and no bomb is planted. In fact, that's usually the only case you get screwed by a flanking team: bomb either goes down or is too slow to plant. If it's not specified in the call, then you should never peel off to cover the flank. I think far too often we have T's take a bomb site and lose it within a few seconds simply because everyone is focused on getting the bomb down when there are 2+ minutes left in a round. Play smart...

Only ONE person should be focused on getting the bomb down: that is the bomb. Everyone else should follow the call, secure the objective, which definitely includes watching every entrance to a bombsite-- including whatever you want to call "the flank"-- and protecting the bomb/bomb planter. That does not necessarily mean you have to run across half the map to cover "the flank" nor does it mean you have to sit there in site and yell at bomb to plant-- which happens far too often in my opinion.

It means you have to communicate what you are watching, and if that requires you to separate then it requires you communicate that to your team. I.e. "Bomb is down in front of Y box, Z person pick it up and plant-- I'm watching X entrance."

As far as the "baiting" goes it's a beaten horse to me. No, don't peel off from a rush. If you are the first one out by spawn every round and the caller is rush-friendly, sorry, just rock and roll. A lot of people like to assume intention, but as we see in these threads (time and time again) it's just about perspective. For example, I've had people yell at me for not making it into a site when I am entirely blind and literally running into a wall and I "should have known how to make it into the site blind." Well I tried to, but failed that time. I guess I am just a shitty blind CS player like most people are. You are never going to gratify everyone, Sel-- just worry about you.

Follow the call, communicate with your team, and don't bait your teammates for personal gain. Bam, done.

**Sel Gomez** · 07-15-12, 10:52 AM

With no offense intended to anyone (not that this has to offend you), do we think that there is a difference between baiting and being a smart player?

I for one think so.

**Sel Gomez** · 07-15-12, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by RAWRKITTY

No problems. I just re-read it and it does indeed look like a jab at you. Sometimes the thought doesn't translate to text all that well.

@ Sel Gomez

Smoking site and sitting in the site while your team gets annihilated is generally what I would call baiting. You'll get the occasional ninja defuse out of it. You might even get 3-4 kills out of it. It's still selling out your team. Considering that's all I see you do I doubt you'll get away with it for a whole lot longer. Once or twice a map is funny and good for a laugh. After that you start pissing people off.

And before anyone else brings it up -I know Morb does go for the ninja defuse at least once a map(you wont' know who that is OP), but he doesn't sit there the entire map doing it every round(unless it's being incredibly effective, or it's a map like chateau)

I actually 100% agree with you in this point. I know its not a great thing to do I just do it for fun I generally do actually play correctly on most maps but I, not trying to offend, like to have fun in CSS

**CivilWars** · 07-15-12, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sel Gomez

With no offense intended to anyone (not that this has to offend you), do we think that there is a difference between baiting and being a smart player?

I for one think so.

Being a "teamplayer" and being a "baiter" are both more about intent than action. If you think, consciously or subconsciously, that you need to do something other than follow the call simply to save your own ass then you are not being a teamplayer. You can try to justify it by saying you are doing the "smart" thing, or by saying that you were watching the flank, had a better angle, were low health, were blind, or any of the thousands of other excuses that people have. The bottom line is if someone calls rush A/B then you should not let off of W, or whatever your forward key is, until the site is secured. Once the site is secured, and the bomber can safely plant, then you are expected to do all of the things previously mentioned to protect the bomb from being defused.

With no offense intended based on your example before of being flashed, but knowing the map well enough to step out of line then you likely know the map well enough to get your ass in the bomb site. I may not call you a baiter, but hopefully shortly after I would be calling you "sukka free", but maybe that's just because I am an asshole, and hope the admin(s) on at the time would be as well.

I think maybe it's time I play less DotA, and more CS:S...

**moving-target** · 07-15-12, 11:04 AM

insert master baiter joke here

**Raush** · 07-15-12, 11:17 AM

The main reason why so many old school regs are bitching about this constantly, and the entire reason this thread needed to be created, is because the newer breed of regs are SO FUCKING SLOW ON A RUSH.

In the past month, I have been baited more by my teammates than I have in the previous 4 years combined. Let's look at lost temple. I have the spawn position closest to A, and the call is a B rush. 9 times out of 10, I will pass every single one of my teammates, and be the first one into B site. I find myself dead, 3 of my teammates are attempting to get into the site with the bomb, while the remaining 6 are still in B tunnels. Bomb fails to get planted, and my buddies in B tunnels (who were doing the all important job of "watching the flank") get killed from all sides.

I have no issue leading a rush when the call and my spawn indicate that I should, but when my teammates refuse to take their turn doing it, I get pissed off.

Baiting is when you put your teammate in a bad position for your own personal gain. There are hundreds of ways to do it, don't argue the semantics. Play hard, pursue the objective, and work WITH with your teammates to win.

ps. To all of you who think you're clever by running a slow line to the site (not straight lines, extremely wide around corners) in order to fall back in the rush without physically stopping, I am keeping a list, knock it off.

**Affinity** · 07-15-12, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sel Gomez

With no offense intended to anyone (not that this has to offend you), do we think that there is a difference between baiting and being a smart player?

I for one think so.

The two are not mutually exclusive, though I can see where you may see that as a common thought around here. A team player goes for the objective as directed, but a smart team player contributes more than that. A smart team player calls what he sees, hears, and knows -- sure it depends on the style of the caller -- and as such, he contributes more than just cannon fodder for the rush.

Nobody is advocating that rushing through a small corridor blind is SMART, but we are saying that rushing through that corridor is the CALL -- so do it regardless of what you think is smart. A smart player doesn't have to get in an argument about what is baiting, because a smart player, in this gameplay format, is a team player. Is it really that smart of you to step aside on a rush? "Well it depends.. herp derp..." That's why you see such a zero-tolerance feel for any alternative. If we had every blind player pull back and hide on a rush then everyone would be "blind" (and smart, right?) and nobody would rush.

As for the logic behind having blind players be fodder for the non-blind ones, that is smart. It is true in competitive play as well as on TPG. If you are first in a site and know you're about to be blind, you should be throwing a flash in first to blind them as well. The point of rushing through a corridor like B tuns on d2 is, like has been stated, to turn heads. The first three guys are naded to shit and blind, but if done properly the CT's should be blind as well-- and if not, should have to turn guns to shoot at the blind folks while the unflashed players back them up.

That is smart teamplay as opposed to the smart play on a personal basis. Sure, it'd raise your K

to drop back on a flash and wait for your non-blind teammates to go first, but that is not how it's played on this server. You aren't meant to sacrifice your own players here, and when you are first on a rush and back up you are doing just that.

Now I don't agree with the idea that every single person has the same job on a rush. That's why I did my little tidbit on the bomber below. The bomber has his objective, your objective is to clear the path for him- not hang back and hope he makes it into site alone.

Originally Posted by Raush

I am keeping a list, knock it off.

I'm keeping this on file just in case any TPG members randomly "disappear."

**Toad** · 07-15-12, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sel Gomez

With no offense intended to anyone (not that this has to offend you), do we think that there is a difference between baiting and being a smart player?

I for one think so.

One issue is that people who are considered baiters are always making the "smart play" of watching the flank (or some other variation that involves them separating from the team and the front lines). Even when the smart play from a whole-team perspective would be to have that player rush the site and have a different player at the back of the line watch the flank. These "smart players" take it upon themselves to watch the flank for any reason they can find and it disorganizes the team and shows their teammates that those players can't be counted on to do their job for that rush. It also shows that the "smart player" doesn't trust his teammates to hold the flank. It's toxic and the small benefit of having that particular smartypants at the flank is far outweighed by the negative effect on the team.

TPG has tons of good players who are eminently capable of watching the team's back, if they have the right spawn for it and if the situation warrants. 90% of these players "get it" and will only watch the flank when it's definitely needed and will not hurt the team. We know this because we've seen them charge through the front door into withering enemy fire or nadestacks in order to let the rest of the team take the site, hundreds of times. Players like Madmax, Illusion, Pimp Trizkit etc... are very noticeably better from a pure skill perspective and also from an intelligence perspective than the new players I see "watching the flank as a smart play". They get the benefit of the doubt because they've spent so much time NOT watching the flank.

**CivilWars** · 07-15-12, 11:47 AM

One reason it always turns into "Us vs them" is that you don't become an "Us" by being a pussy, asshat, douche, baiter, or whatever adjective you want to use. You can play an hour and be an "Us", but "thems" don't usually last long.

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