Thread: CSS rules and objectives

Originally Posted by jason_jinx

Everyone remember the ring if fire?

Catches the player on fire then auto slays him with the message "pursue the objective or die trying".
There is no way you can deny this commander and if you do well that does not say much about your character.

so you know what's wrong with this?

What are the conditions that Ring of Fire slays for?

Does it slay CT's that don't defuse the bomb?
Does it slay T's for not killing all the CT's that are trying to rescue hostages?
Does it slay all CT's when the bomb goes off?
Does it slay all T's when the hostages are rescued?

No. And it never will.

It slays CT's who don't rescue hostages or kill all the T's before time runs out, because that is undeniably, in all cases, what their job is for that mission. It slays all T's who don't dont get the bomb planted or kill all CT's before time runs out.

And why?

Is it simply slaying the losers because they lose? Why is it only slaying TWO CASES of losers, and not 4?

you tell me why. why was ring of fire specifically written to do these, and only these slays?

ROF was written, specifically, to REMOVE THE BIAS placed on an admin's decision to slay people. The problem is.....even ROF can be biased IF....

ROF slayed T's that let the CT's rescue the hostages......how can that possibly be fair in all cases (since ROF would slay in all cases)? It's not. T's spread out. And they make defensive plans. And if everyone in the house gets killed, the hostages get grabbed, and the guys running their way back to the T spawn to stop the CT's make a wrong turn, or just barely miss the CT's sneaking by......it's not their fault (assuming they were trying to come and stop the CT's). None of them would be slayed, ever, even if they made a dumb turn or mistake. We don't slay people for being dumb. We slay the guy that knows the hostages were rescued, so instead of trying to cut off the CT's, or make it to their spawn first...he goes and hides in the cellars. A BLATANT sell out of the team and the objective. Slayed.

ROF slayed T's that don't plant the bomb before time runs out.  They can see the bomb.  It's on their radar.  They know where the bombsites are.  Just because there's CT's in the way doesn't mean they can just give up.

ROF does NOT slay CT's that have a bomb explode on their watch.  Why?  Because.....it's not right in all cases.

CT's spread out.  CT's set up a defense.  And T's break through.  If you're covering long A, and the T's rush B, break in, plant, and kill all of the tunnel and B defenders before they can get on the mic, and clearly call out that the bomb IS at B and being planted......Mr. Long A CT is going to sit there, and hold his position.  When he hears the bomb get planted....he's going to come back to the bombsite....A or B...depending on the intel.  If he picks wrong, and likely he will...then he's 10 seconds away from a bomb with 5 seconds left on the fuse.

NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE SLAYED FOR SUCH A SITUATION.  That CT held their position, came back to find an empty bombsite, and has no time to make it to the other before the bomb goes off.  MOST ESPECIALLY if that CT is underfire, or being "faked" at long A to remain there, as any well planned, communicating T team would do to take some pressure off of the live B bomb site.

slaying that CT would not only be wrong, it would be fucking ridiculous.  The CT that gets slayed is the one that's standing in A when the bomb is planted, and instead of shouting out it's at B, and moving in that direction, pops a squat in the corner, or runs down long A to hide in the ramp.  That CT is a bitch, isn't pursuing the objective, and gets slayed.

ROF took a while for us to develop. And it came into being only because we knew there were cases where, 100% of the time, it was bullshit for a team to be allowed to survive. If the clock runs out on CT's on a hostage map, they didn't rescue the hostages (which don't move, and are in the same place every time), so they have no excuse other than the T's having a good defense, and refusing to assault. Refusing to assault, when there's a chance of success isn't good enough. So you get slayed.

If the clock runs out on T's on a bomb map, they dind't plant the bomb, which doesn't move, and is in the same place every time. They also have no excuse other than being chickenshits. So they get slayed. 100% of the time. No excuses. By ROF. ROF was made, because sometimes.....we just don't have time to slay 5+ people before the round ends. And it's not fair for the next round for us to slay 5 people, eliminating half the team or more. ROF was made to allow the rule to be enforced quickly, and fairly, and without bias.

So....WHY WASN'T IT MADE TO KILL CT'S THAT DON'T DEFUSE? WHY WASN'T IT MADE TO KILL T'S THAT LET THE HOSTAGES GET AWAY OR DON'T KILL ALL THE CT'S ON A HOSTAGE MAP?

So now....now we have this big stink. We have xplodr, a former CSS MID ADMIN, for god's sake, slaying a HIGH ADMIN because his interpretation of the "die trying" rule......and let me just quote it so we make it pretty fucking clear:

Originally Posted by ...bigdog...

[size=24px]#3. Pursue your objective, or die trying.[/size]

The objectives are pretty simple. One team is on offense, and the other is on defense. The defending team should protect their objective (the bombsite or hostages) and the offending team should pursue that objective (by planting the bomb or rescuing the hostages). Yes, CS will give a team the win should they kill all members of the opposing team. However, killing all members of the other team should come secondary to the objective, perhaps only as a consequence of pursuing that objective so strongly.

There is no such thing as camping for a defending team. They must guard the objective, and if the objective doesn't move, there's no reason to think that the defenders MUST move to protect it. HOWEVER, there is quite a disease in CS, in which the offending team (bomb-carrying terrorists or hostage-rescuing CT's) does little to pursue their objective. The best examples would be on dust, or italy, where frequently, offending teams will simply wait out the clock near their spawns, hoping to draw out curious members of the defending team. This is camping. Pure and simple. If you wish to camp, do so on a DEFENDING team.

The server has implemented measures to discourage offensive players from camping. These measures apply to the CT's on a hostage map and to the T's on a bombing map. These measures are fully automated, and thus unbiased. The bomb is displayed on your radar, as are the hostages, so there can be no excuses for disregarding the objective. The round timer is also displayed, and exists for a reason. If you are unwilling, or incapable of completing your objective in the time allotted, you will be punished, harshly.

In addition, if you are consistently camping, promoting camping, and losing while camping on an offending team, expect to be punished further. The admin will take notice immediately when outbreaks of unjustified camping occur, and may supercede the automated punishments at any time for something more "appropriate", up to and including kicks or bans. Though we are reluctant to punish any one player for doing as his team does, we will identify and persecute the chief campers quickly, and move down the ladder from there.

Keep in mind, we are NOT asking you to run off into your deaths. But we ARE asking you to play CS. This is not Quake. This is not Doom. This is not Unreal. If you want to stand around and shoot at things, I'm sure there's a “fight yard" map open somewhere out there for you to sit around on.

This is Counter-Strike. There has to be an objective, and a means to take it or defend it. Otherwise, it's not CS. It's just a DM where you don't respawn.

Key phrases: The server has implemented measures to discourage offensive players from camping. These measures apply to the CT's on a hostage map and to the T's on a bombing map. These measures are fully automated, and thus unbiased. The bomb is displayed on your radar, as are the hostages, so there can be no excuses for disregarding the objective. The round timer is also displayed, and exists for a reason. If you are unwilling, or incapable of completing your objective in the time allotted, you will be punished, harshly.

That's ROF. And it hasn't changed in years. Likely not since we invented the script, and the reasons it would act. Delibrate. Perfect.

Slaying a CT that realizes they're 5 seconds late on a 3 second bomb, turning away to survive the blast is ridiculous. That's the kind of shit you'd expect on a TDM pwnage server, or some ridiculous spawn protection kind of rule you see at TG. A backwards, gross misunderstanding of the game, the situation, and the rule.

Key Phrase: Keep in mind, we are NOT asking you to run off into your deaths. But we ARE asking you to play CS.

If we slayed every CT that failed to defuse a bomb, or that survived to live another day in a situation that was obviously out of their hands.....then no one would survive a round unless they won. Is that what the rule says? No. In fact, it specifically says we're NOT asking people to run off and die for nothing.

And "nothing" is a 3 second bomb when you're 5 seconds out. You know you can't make it. The T's know you can't make it. If anything, you might instead be better thinking about the NEXT ROUND, and kill some of those fucks as they try to escape. Delay them enough, so the bomb kills them, you keep your shit, so at least someone on your team is going to have a decent kit, and those T fucks are going to have to buy it.

We SLAY in such a situation if it's a 10 second bomb, and you're 5 seconds out, and rather than risking your awp and deagle and armor...you punk out, slow down, stop, or even turn around and run. that's a BLATANT abandonment of the objective, and a concession of defeat. Not even trying. And even if it was 10:1 T's to CT's in the bombsite....we'd likely still slay you....but notice the "likely".

We are NOT asking you to run into your deaths. If we were, the ROF would slay you no matter what, so you'd have no choice but to run in and fight, since either way, you're going to die. That's not the rule. That's not the practice. That's not how it's supposed to be.

So now.....where are we?

We have admins mocking other admins.

We have highs doubting other highs.

And we have cock fuck douche ban regular CSS pubbers doing what typical regular CSS pubbers do....and that's spit on people with their pwnage, and leetness, and attitudes. CSS is fucking poison, so I don't blame you guys for acting this way. But you will be held accountable.

Any admin that has had a "bad slay" due to their misinterpretation of the rule that HASN'T CHANGED IN MORE THAN 2 YEARS will be suspended, or fired, depending on their willingness to understand what they did wrong, and what they're going to do to fix it. That includes high admins.

since we don't name admins, even highs, and since we don't declare punishments of admins outside of admin forums....those of you that are admins, you know the drill and the procedure, and you'll know the outcome.

those of you that aren't admins........you make your choice now. either TTP is full of shit, and this is all a lie, and rules are dumb, and admins are liars, and you you you you you.....

or you stop. And you fucking look at what you're doing. You look in the mirror, and ask yourself what the fuck you're so god damn pissed about? Why are you so god damn angry about some fucking slays, and bans, and clans, and regs, and games online? Why so much drama, and hate, and infighting, and competition, and blame, and finger pointing?

What's wrong with you people?

for those of you who are QUITE OBVIOUSLY on the wrong side of the rule, but have been waving your high and mighty quotes of rules, and posts by admins about rules, and rules rules rules you you you you..... I don't expect your apology. I don't even expect you to admit to even yourself that you're part of the group I'm criticizing here. But I hope you sit back for a second, and you think.....just fucking think.......who's side are you on? What is your goal here? What do you want to happen?

Burn everything to the ground? ban 100's of people? Fire everyone? remove CSS and all CSS resident clans from TTP?

When's it going to end? when are you going to be satisfied?

Because if you can't answer that question...if you don't have a goal here...a rule clarification that needs to be made, or some admins that need to be censured, punished, or removed (with specific evidence and/or admissions of guilt)............then you're doing this for no reason other than to be famous. to be cool. to be the typical internet fucking dickface that likes to spit on people.

And if you know me......there is nothing I won't do to make you look like a fool, hurt your reputation and pride, have your friends, allies, clanmates, and bro's turn on you, picking TTP over your sorry, vain, arrogant, you you you you ass. You're here to be famous.....not to play nice with others. And that's not compatible with TTP, ever, but most especially in a situation like.

The post is now unlocked. Admin business will remain admin business. All bans remain in place. If they are to be contested, in light of this refreshed understanding of a rule that hasn't changed in years.......then they can go and make their requests in the ban forum.

And like bunni already said....if any players have been harmed by a TTP admin enforcing a rule that doesn't, and shouldn't have ever existed.....as in any case of admin abuse....those players need to come forward, make their case, and watch that admin take a fall. TTP is quick to point out our faults, and fix them. But we have to know the faults exist. In this case....it came from an admin fucking up, and doing something to a higher admin (which is against a lot of internal protocols, which is why it raised such scrutiny and action). But...a majority of our flaws are pointed out in the abuse forum where players, with cool heads, facts, and reason can make their cases.

If they can't, or won't........then TTP sides with it's admins using their discretion to interpret what's going on in the game as they see it, and make the call. What other choices do we have?

Good post for damage control.

The players are pissed because we have a admin that presumes he is above the law. He obscures the truth with playing word games then recites the rules to what they should mean to him.

and at the end of all this, ROF was really written so none of this would ever be an issue, period.

Admins should be slaying campers.  Peopel trying to save their own asses, sitting in closets and spawns and nooks and crannies, being sissies.  Commander was certainly not doing that, and thus it was unjust, and WRONG to slay him as a player.  As an admin to admin slay....there's different forums and rules for that issue, where it is being addressed.

ROF will slay the people that have the responsibility to attack, but admins have the discretion and experience to determine who is and is not "defending" hostages or bombsites, and whether their actions truly were for the team, or for themselves.

if everyone's dead, and the bomb IS going to go off (3 seconds left), defusing is no longer an objective, since it's no longer an option.  What happened leading up to that 3 seconds left....what that CT did while the timer was counting down....that's what determines their slay.  Not just the mere fact they are alive when the bomb goes off. That's a stupid person's way of making and enforcing rules.

Originally Posted by jason_jinx

Good post for damage control.

The players are pissed because we have a admin that presumes he is above the law. He obscures the truth with playing word games then recites the rules to what they should mean to him.

this coming from an admin that was voted on by his peers to be fired......

pretty hard to take that seriously, right?

if you want to make some quotes, and drop some names, and make a case, you go right ahead. high admins get fired and suspended, just as mids and lows do. So you come on and bring it.

Originally Posted by jason_jinx

Good post for damage control.

and I could give a fuck less about damage control. All of this is about the CSS admins getting lazy, and begging for someone to slay. Not thinking. Not doing their diligence and figuring out what's happening, and instead opening up their admin menu's, bring up their slay function, and scrolling through players looking for a target.

the exact kinds of admins that inspired TTP to ever exist in the first place.

The flaw I see is that the rule can be interpreted in different ways by different admins. From the quotes posted it seems that some highs disagree.

The two high admins that play CSS with the most hours, (names left out for a reason) should debate for what the ultimate ruling is because they are 100% CSS dedicated. They know TTP css inside and out.

If one of them says that the ultimate rule is defuse or die trying, then the highs should agree on that rule and we should get on with our lives.

I can't see firing/punishing the high admin with the most or second most css coverage on the server for stating a rule as we as a community has understood it.