Thread: Help me infect the next generation

This:

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

Hey, Salty. When I fell asleep last night, did I wake up in the 90s? Cause that bit with the frame rate is making me think so.

... reminded me that I need your expertise (all of you, not just White).

My nephew (10 yrs old) is ready for a new computer game, and I think it's time for a real RTS.

The "90s" comment is what reminded me because I'm not alone in thinking that Starcraft was pretty close to being a perfect game. Broodwar made it even better! What is available now that even comes close to matching Starcraft for:

- replay-ability.
- resource-based production that strikes the proper balance between being important but not devolving the game into a micro-managing nightmare.
- unit management (grouping, tasking, waypoints, etc.) that produces reasonable behaviour without requiring the user to learn a complex process.
- real variety and balance: multiple races/species/factions with actual differences; different tactical and strategic choices (rather than a single dominant tactic).

So, for example, Total Annihilation (same era) was in many ways a deeper and more-developed game than Starcraft. But its ability to create complex production and task queues would be a disadvantage here.

Other things that Starcraft had which I want:

- single player and multiplayer.
- the ability to play a game in less than an hour.

And even more requirements:

My nephew lives where there is only dish/satellite internet. The game needs to not be dependent on:

- a persistent connection
- a low-latency connection
- a high bandwidth connection

What this boils down to is that when I go to visit we need to be able to play local network games.

Why this is in my head:

Five or six years ago someone game him their old copy of Knights and Merchants on CD, I loaded it on their crappy old PC, and my nephew was fascinated. He was too young to be good at it, but he loved playing it. Earlier this year I noticed that someone had buffed it up, wrapped it in WINE, and made it available via Steam.

So I bought it for him, installed Steam on their (new) computer, and downloaded it after 2am (when their bandwidth is unmetered.). I have no idea how a 10-year-old can be nostalgic for a game, but he loves it.

But holy crap is it painful to play. There are many good things about it; but it's a micro-managing nightmare, the networking doesn't work, and it takes hours to finish a scenario.

DId I mention they had a new computer? It's a gorgeous 27" iMac with 8 G of RAM and an NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M 1GB (not the Intel HD/Pro graphics).

So, um, yeah - this game needs to be available for OS X.

Candidates?


Æ

I honestly don't know too many RTSes. I liked Total Annihilation and Warzone 2100, but those can be more complicated. That being said. I'm not sure they're too complicated for a 10 year old.

As for Total Annihilation, I'm not sure I would recommend it. The GOG version works on modern systems (Windows only though), but the UI and game don't work too well with modern resolutions.

Warzone 2100 is free and available on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Warzone 2100: A Free And Open Source Real-Time Strategy Game
It's old, but it's free now and well maintained. I think Rush worked on the project in the past. It's quite fun.

I'd say beyond those and Starcraft, there's Warcraft 1, 2, and 3.

Aren't there are also some games on Steam that can do one screen multiplayer?

Maybe Multiwinia, Company of Heroes, Dawn of War 1 and 2?

The Total War games look to have Mac support.

I'm not sure if any of those would be acceptable in the eyes of your nephew's parents. There are the games, books, movies, and music your nephew will make use of, and there are the ones that his parents can know about.

You could always just do something similar to what my aunt did when I was in the 8th grade so I could watch the Matrix. My cousin waited to give it to me until after the party was over and my dad had gone to play Starcraft in his room.
"Dad, can we watch the Matrix? It's rated R."
Chortles. "Yeah, sure if we have it." More chortling.
30 minutes later. "How did you get this movie?"
"It was my gift from my cousin."
Terse words with my aunt.

Well, DotA 2 does have LAN support, I think, but I'm not sure how fun a MOBA with just two players would be. The other thing is that a game like would probably interest him in playing online, which could be a problem given the Satellite connection. He'd be at a frustrating disadvantage.

As for Starcraft, a lot can change in that much time. Also, were you installing from discs or from Battlenet? If from discs, you can take your discs to battlenet and add them to an account. That being said, my father never had an issue playing starcraft on XP, 8.1, or 10 now.

I suppose with complicated games, think of them like more books geared towards older audiences. You'd be surprised at how much a young person might enjoy them and understand them.

I did just find this though.
https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...os-x-10-7-lion
Still, learning how to use bootcamp ain't a bad thing.

Oh, and DotA 2's F2P mechanics aren't like LoL's (slight pay to win). What you buy are cosmetics only. With the base game, you can do everything. Got to make sure he gets the "talk" though. By "talk", I mean to tell him about the dangers of using hacks so he doesn't get VACed. Always got to make sure young kids know to play it safe with online gaming.

Isn't there also a family/friend share option with Steam for games? So, let a friend play a game from your account while you aren't playing any games to let them see if they'd like it. Could be a way to see how much he'd like Steam games.

As for Total Annihilation, it just felt like the game's UI and controls didn't scale too well to my resolution (1920 x 1200). The game is still nice, and it could just be that the last time I played it was in the early 2000s on my first desktop that I got in 1998 so I have certain learned expectations of the gameplay. No drivers problems at least on Windows with my Nvidia card. I haven't tried out the expansions yet.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

Well, DotA 2 does have LAN support, I think, but I'm not sure how fun a MOBA with just two players would be. The other thing is that a game like would probably interest him in playing online, which could be a problem given the Satellite connection. He'd be at a frustrating disadvantage.

Yeah, I already wasn't looking at DOTA2 because it failed too many of my requirements. Since I wasn't getting any other suggestions, I was willing to reconsider. But it still seems like a bad fit.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

As for Starcraft, a lot can change in that much time. Also, were you installing from discs or from Battlenet? If from discs, you can take your discs to battlenet and add them to an account. That being said, my father never had an issue playing starcraft on XP, 8.1, or 10 now.

Discs, I think. Or rather, I think I grafted it out of my older (early 2000s) PC because I only had the Broodwars disc and didn't have the original disc (though I did have the product code). A gaming friend really wanted to play and goaded me into it.

You can buy StarCraft on Battle.net. It's Windows-only. It also says that it requires a gfx card which can do 640x480 w/256 colours (which, I guess, is what the problem was before).

The reason this thread even exists is that I want a game that is in the same genre as StarCraft. If I could just go and buy StarCraft then I'd already have done it. Twice - once for me and once for him.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

I suppose with complicated games, think of them like more books geared towards older audiences. You'd be surprised at how much a young person might enjoy them and understand them.

Oh, I'm not at all worried about his ability. He's a bright and curious kid. We've been playing computer games together since he was 3. My concerns about complicated games are more to do with time.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

I did just find this though.
https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...os-x-10-7-lion
Still, learning how to use bootcamp ain't a bad thing.

I already know how to use Bootcamp. I'm a multi-booter from way back. I have a couple external drives sitting around which would work great. What I don't have is a Windows license for anything newer than XP.

I'd actually be interested in having a Windows-bootable external drive. I'd love to be on the list of "BF2 Reunion" people. But I'm not putting XP on any machine that faces the internet. I asked if anyone had an extra license for Win7 or newer and no one answered. And anyway, that only gives me the opportunity to spend hours and hours fucking around with a new windows install and getting BF2 working for a slim chance that this Reunion thing even happens.

It doesn't help the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

Oh, and DotA 2's F2P mechanics aren't like LoL's (slight pay to win). What you buy are cosmetics only. With the base game, you can do everything. Got to make sure he gets the "talk" though. By "talk", I mean to tell him about the dangers of using hacks so he doesn't get VACed. Always got to make sure young kids know to play it safe with online gaming.

Isn't there also a family/friend share option with Steam for games? So, let a friend play a game from your account while you aren't playing any games to let them see if they'd like it. Could be a way to see how much he'd like Steam games.

He already has 2 Steam games: Knights and Merchants, and something else he bought on Steam. Something about Badgers.

You're right about "the talk." I hadn't even considered it because he isn't playing anything over the 'net.

I doubt he'd go looking for mods or cheats, but eventually the thought will occur to him (or one of his friends will suggest it).

So that's a really good point. I'll have to figure out a way to warn him that doesn't simultaneously stoke his curiosity.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

As for Total Annihilation, it just felt like the game's UI and controls didn't scale too well to my resolution (1920 x 1200). The game is still nice, and it could just be that the last time I played it was in the early 2000s on my first desktop that I got in 1998 so I have certain learned expectations of the gameplay. No drivers problems at least on Windows with my Nvidia card. I haven't tried out the expansions yet.

And his monitor is 2560x1440, so maybe it's even worse.

It's probably because I've been playing w/ my nephew, but lately my mind has been turning towards retrogaming. I was excited when I heard about Homeworld Remastered. I had the original, and it was spectacular. But then it turned out that they gutted the game mechanics of the original. I don't fault them for having made a business decision (resources are tight), but I don't want to buy it.

I'd be interested in revisiting TA too, but only given that there were other people also into it.

Thanks for the suggestions. If you think of any more, send them along.

That goes for anyone else too. It's starting to feel lonely here in this Team Gaming Community.


Æ

Well, the bootcamp thing was more for the nephew.

As far as the resolution, you can use Chaos Launcher to have it run in Windowed mode so you can actually see the game. It can also update Starcraft from the Blizzard servers (the anthology version you can download off of bnet isn't updated all the way).
Chaoslauncher - Liquipedia Starcraft Wiki

Found this as well that may help.
https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...c-game-patches
I guess you could set up either another partition or a VM for an older OSX version to use, but that seems like a bit of a rigmarole.

I'm honestly thinking Multiwinia + Hamachi (to play on LAN) might work well. Darwinia is also a SP game.

My bad Ae, my notifications botched this one and I didn't see the thread til now.

My youth was filled with classic RTS - I have a lot of cousins around the same age who are all gamers and we used to LAN all the time when we were younger before we all moved to different cities/states

I agree that SC and WC1,2,3 are excellent choices, but beyond that:

-LotR: War of the Ring - very much a warcraft 3 spin-off, might have even been the same engine. That game was awesome, not too demanding, I'm sure it has LAN support, and should be fairly easy to find. Me and my cousins used to remote LAN with hamachi, so true LAN shouldn't be an issue.

Shogun and Medieval total war - you can LAN custom battles and maybe even historical battles, but the campaign was strictly single payer; doesn't sound like too big an issue though since you wanted matches to last an hour or less. Me and my cousins would LAN this one as well.

Star Wars: Galactic Battleground - this game was built on the Age of Empires 2 engine but in my mind is superior in every way. I will get a lot of flak for this but this might just be the best RTS of my youth, I put way too many hours into it. It plays exactly like AoE2, but with star wars factions, planets, units, ships, etc. It has great LAN support and a killer level/campaign editor. Should be really easy to find online too.

Command and Conquer - this is a series I Didn't really play up until Red Alert 2, but pretty much every release up through the modern ones has LAN support I think. C&C3 was my personal favorite, but I think you might find the majority of fans saying generals was the best.

Star Trek Armada - I've never met a single other person who has played this game but it's one of my all time favorites. I do remember having some difficulties getting it working, but that was in 2000. It was published by Activision/Blizzard so it's def a good one.

Army-Men 1,2,3, world war, rts. I played and loved every one of them. They are technically more top/down action than rts, buy i include them in the genre anyways. Army men rts is the only one that's a true rts, but they were all great games with LAN support.

Battle bugs - the oldest RTS I've played, but so so so good. Might be able to get running on dosbox or any of the other popular dos game platforms.

Sins of a Solar Empire: it's definitely not a classic game, but it's the best space rts I've played (though I'm one of the few that hated orion, so take that for what it's worth)

Lord of the Rings: the battle for Middle earth (the first one). Also a newer title but a great game nonetheless. If I recall correctly, EA had their grubby greedy paws all over that one, so you might have some difficulty with licensing, but it's worth a go

Rise of Nations - I played thIs one a ton. Think Civ, but not turn based. Very good game

Empire Earth 1 & 2 - same vibe as RoN, might have even come out first, still great games though.

Supreme Commander - a bit more modern but really great scale and a good game to get competitive at

Commandos 1, 2, 3 - I'm not sure if there's actually multiplayer, but these games were legit! Very good tactical rts (well, actually it was turn based)

Oh, and let's not forget Age of Empires 1 and 2. I mentioned those earlier but forgot to actually list them

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

I honestly don't know too many RTSes. I liked Total Annihilation and Warzone 2100, but those can be more complicated. That being said. I'm not sure they're too complicated for a 10 year old.

Warzone 2100 is free and available on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Warzone 2100: A Free And Open Source Real-Time Strategy Game
It's old, but it's free now and well maintained. I think Rush worked on the project in the past. It's quite fun.

That I did work on Warzone 2100, its a great game.

I worked on it before it went open source a lot. We put out three or so unofficial patches to the game that added lots and lots of content and new features, as well as fixed lots of bugs.

The project is now much further along after we got a lot of signatures and tracked down the publisher/developer and got them to open source the game.

The campaign is really good, and long. And multiplayer is good both skirmish and online.

It does run on OSX and linux and Windows. And the computer doesn't have to be very powerful either.

It is really really fun, in fact I am going to go download it right now and play a few rounds with my father...