Thread: Atheists get all religious on religion.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I know you were guilty of it and so is everyone else here at some point in time.

Actually i would say that atheism fits a meaning of religion.

4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Atheism has faith there is no god. Im guessing that why when you have dog tags made in the service you can use atheist as your religion.

Any definition that is loose enough to contain atheism will be loose enough to contain any belief. For example, belief that small government is good for the economy. Whether or not the dog tag makers inappropriately label it as such, it's not a religion.

This definition would also make the disbelief in Zeus (or Shiva if you find Zeus to be insulting for some reason) a religion.

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

Any definition that is loose enough to contain atheism will be loose enough to contain any belief. For example, belief that small government is good for the economy. Whether or not the dog tag makers inappropriately label it as such, it's not a religion.

I fail to see how an exact match is loose. Plus thats the federal government that makes those regs on dog tags. In addition to that government employees are the ones that make them. The reason it fits is because the definition of religion has less to do with a god and more to do with a belief/faith system.

This thread has kinda got into my head. It also occurred to me that to some people, base-10 is a religious thing.

So I spent the last 15 minutes typing out some thoughts. I offer them for what they're worth. They are poorly organized, but they start with an idea.

It's an idea summed up by one of my theologian friends like this:

"Basically, we want God."

My interpretation:

There is something about humans, and being human, that leads us to invent the idea of God. We keep doing it, over and over again. Some of these Gods last (in human terms) a very long time.

There are countless remixes of it. Some remixes claim themselves The One True X, and dismiss others. Some of these remixes are conscious of the ones that came before, and may even try to incorporate all the other instances (Sikhs, for example) into their own. Some are more, and some less, literal in the way they say God exists.

Some of these things have been very useful. A religion is an effective way to codify, teach, and maintain a set of ethical and/or moral rules. It's an effective way to keep a history, or to instil a sense of identity among a people.

You can think about it as something that has a purpose, but there doesn't have to be a purpose. The tendency towards god or religion is just part of us, a desire or an urge, the same way we desire or create anything else.

In that sense, the source of God is the same as the source of art, or having sex for fun, or a competitive spirit, or our tendency to form groups and cede some of our will to leaders. It's just part of what we do.

We have, innately, spiritual needs.

We are continually confronted by things we don't understand or can't control.

We form groups, and need a way to have order or authority.

Religion is one way to deal with all those things.

You can look at the history of human religions the same way you look at the history of human political organization; or for that matter, the way you look at geological history. Trends pop out. Similarities and differences become apparent. Once you're familiar with enough of them you can see what sort of religion works in which historical period, or even spot proto-religions in our present day.

Humans have changed over time (maybe you want to say "progressed", maybe not), and become more numerous. Other things are now taking care of some of the needs. In some places, we're more able to control and understand our world - and even when we're not, we're generally more secure and therefore less afraid. Many of us read, and write, and have access to non-religious teaching.

We're thinking.

Lots of us, even among the religious, feel entitled to have opinions. We interpret for ourselves now. We disagree with authority. We demand that logic and reason be applied.

Even the most devout talk about their beliefs Making Sense - which in the not very distant past would have been a GTFO moment. Make sense? What kind of follower asks that question? What kind of follower asks questions at all? What kind of follower argues about truth?

The kind that doesn't need God as much any more.

That allows for some weird things, like Christian Atheism. Just because God doesn't exist doesn't mean that Jesus didn't have a good point.

It also lets us be pragmatic about our own needs. We study chemistry, and agriculture, and many other things - but we also study ourselves. We understand a great deal concerning our nutritional needs. That helps a lot. We are also learning about our spiritual needs. Even in the absence of God, we still have spiritual needs.

Witness the rise of the new tribalism, renewed interest in paganism, the growth of things like music festivals and Burning Man.

We invented God to satisfy that need. It worked well for a while. For more and more people, it's not working so well any more. The upsides no longer outweigh the down.

In this context, atheism isn't a belief. People who need the kind of thing that God provides are believers. Those who don't need God, aren't.

For most of us, the desire is still there - we still have that innate human thing going on. Dogma is easy, and we're lazy. Continuously reorganizing your understanding of the universe every time some damned scientist discovers something new is a huge pain in the ass. We humans, even the atheists, are prone to religious behaviour because (among other things) it's so convenient.

And so human.

The above is not what I believe. It's just what I think. And that could change.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by AetheLove

This thread has kinda got into my head. It also occurred to me that to some people, base-10 is a religious thing.

So I spent the last 15 minutes typing out some thoughts. I offer them for what they're worth. They are poorly organized, but they start with an idea.

It's an idea summed up by one of my theologian friends like this:

"Basically, we want God."

My interpretation:

There is something about humans, and being human, that leads us to invent the idea of God. We keep doing it, over and over again. Some of these Gods last (in human terms) a very long time.

There are countless remixes of it. Some remixes claim themselves The One True X, and dismiss others. Some of these remixes are conscious of the ones that came before, and may even try to incorporate all the other instances (Sikhs, for example) into their own. Some are more, and some less, literal in the way they say God exists.

Some of these things have been very useful. A religion is an effective way to codify, teach, and maintain a set of ethical and/or moral rules. It's an effective way to keep a history, or to instil a sense of identity among a people.

You can think about it as something that has a purpose, but there doesn't have to be a purpose. The tendency towards god or religion is just part of us, a desire or an urge, the same way we desire or create anything else.

In that sense, the source of God is the same as the source of art, or having sex for fun, or a competitive spirit, or our tendency to form groups and cede some of our will to leaders. It's just part of what we do.

We have, innately, spiritual needs.

We are continually confronted by things we don't understand or can't control.

We form groups, and need a way to have order or authority.

Religion is one way to deal with all those things.

You can look at the history of human religions the same way you look at the history of human political organization; or for that matter, the way you look at geological history. Trends pop out. Similarities and differences become apparent. Once you're familiar with enough of them you can see what sort of religion works in which historical period, or even spot proto-religions in our present day.

Humans have changed over time (maybe you want to say "progressed", maybe not), and become more numerous. Other things are now taking care of some of the needs. In some places, we're more able to control and understand our world - and even when we're not, we're generally more secure and therefore less afraid. Many of us read, and write, and have access to non-religious teaching.

We're thinking.

Lots of us, even among the religious, feel entitled to have opinions. We interpret for ourselves now. We disagree with authority. We demand that logic and reason be applied.

Even the most devout talk about their beliefs Making Sense - which in the not very distant past would have been a GTFO moment. Make sense? What kind of follower asks that question? What kind of follower asks questions at all? What kind of follower argues about truth?

The kind that doesn't need God as much any more.

That allows for some weird things, like Christian Atheism. Just because God doesn't exist doesn't mean that Jesus didn't have a good point.

It also lets us be pragmatic about our own needs. We study chemistry, and agriculture, and many other things - but we also study ourselves. We understand a great deal concerning our nutritional needs. That helps a lot. We are also learning about our spiritual needs. Even in the absence of God, we still have spiritual needs.

Witness the rise of the new tribalism, renewed interest in paganism, the growth of things like music festivals and Burning Man.

We invented God to satisfy that need. It worked well for a while. For more and more people, it's not working so well any more. The upsides no longer outweigh the down.

In this context, atheism isn't a belief. People who need the kind of thing that God provides are believers. Those who don't need God, aren't.

For most of us, the desire is still there - we still have that innate human thing going on. Dogma is easy, and we're lazy. Continuously reorganizing your understanding of the universe every time some damned scientist discovers something new is a huge pain in the ass. We humans, even the atheists, are prone to religious behaviour because (among other things) it's so convenient.

And so human.

The above is not what I believe. It's just what I think. And that could change.

Cheers,


AetheLove

But aliens started it all.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I fail to see how an exact match is loose. Plus thats the federal government that makes those regs on dog tags. In addition to that government employees are the ones that make them. The reason it fits is because the definition of religion has less to do with a god and more to do with a belief/faith system.

Disbelief in Zeus is also a religion by your exact fit: Disbelief in Zeus has faith there is no Zeus.

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

Well, it has more evidence than creationism at least. .00001>0