Norway killer Anders Breivik ruled sane, given 21-year prison term

**Ranger10** · 08-24-12, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by MaFioSo

Pretty much agree with everything. I would agree with having a more rehabilitation prison for non violent offenders such as people who steal cars or sell drugs. The United Sates currently has one of the highest rates of repeat offenders. As trigger said, if you're not a hardened criminal before you enter a US prison, you probably will be when you get out.

However, I would be far more conservative with people convicted of child molestation and multiple murders such as Breivik. It is IMO that people that commit those types of crimes cannot be rehabilitated and if we were to put them in a rehabilitation program it wouldn't be worth the risk of releasing them to see if it worked.

Also everyone is talking about rehabbing these criminals but no one is talking about punishment. If 1 of the 70 people murdered by this guy was your dad, mother, brother, wife, etc you wouldn't give a shit about rehab. You wouldn't care at all if after 20 years he was released and then became a model citizen. You would wan't him to spend his entire life in prison as punishment for what he did. It would be a great injustice for Breivik to be out on the streets after 20 years, rehabilitated or not.

It's a tough argument, there has to be some balance between rehabilitation and "punishment fits the crime".

I'm pretty extreme with really egregious crimes, especially violent ones. Call it old fashioned, but if you take one life, then we take yours. But then I tend to get much more flexible with lesser crimes, especially "victim-less crime". Those are the people who can be rehab'd.

I guess, imho, we are too lenient on some crimes, and too harsh on others.

**deathgodusmc** · 08-25-12, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ranger10

But they don't know HOW to make a smart choice. The problem is, as Trigger pointed out, all our current prison system does is train them to be better criminals. Look, "rehab" isn't someone sitting around a circle with a bunch of other tossers, and sharing their feelings. It's about creating momentum for making the right choices. Giving someone a purpose, a reason for living, or any other motivation for becoming a productive member of society is always better than sitting around in a prison cell wondering which gang you have to join to not get shanked.

It's not "expensive". Creating super max facilities are expensive. The money you spend on rehabilitating people who don't know any other way of doing things will pay off in the long run far better than letting the "system" train them instead.

Meh. If we need to hold your hand for you to make a good decision then why bother.

**Ranger10** · 08-25-12, 12:54 PM

But everyone needs a helping hand at some point right? It's part of the "social contract". Not everyone gets to grow up in a nice Martha Stewart home where mommy's and daddy's create a healthy environment in which to make choices to learn which ones are 'good' and which are 'bad'.

Case in point, I have a friend who was raped by her father repeatedly from the time she was 6, until 12. Then, when he left, her mother would hold her down and let anonymous men rape her so her mother could get drugs. Do you think she is capable of making a good decision? Of course not. She's so messed up in the head from the trauma that was done to her, its not hard to wonder why she's been in and out of jail several times for aiding and abetting others who committed crimes for drugs. To her, that's just normal.

But rather than lock her away for her entire life, we as a society have an opportunity to help her (and others like her) understand right from wrong by creating a "rehabilitative" prison where no one rapes her, and she gets to wake up every day in a place that gives her purpose, and something infinitely more valuable, hope.

**Fovezer** · 08-25-12, 01:37 PM

I agree that rehabilitation is the way to go over retribution, but I go further and say we also need to allow people to start fresh once they are released. Once they serve their time and complete their probation, they should get the right to vote back. They shouldn't be passed over for employment because of their record. Yes, I know that is a major hurdle for most people to get over, but if we continue to treat people like criminals once they serve their debt to society, they will continue to act like criminals.

**deathgodusmc** · 08-25-12, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ranger10

But everyone needs a helping hand at some point right? It's part of the "social contract". Not everyone gets to grow up in a nice Martha Stewart home where mommy's and daddy's create a healthy environment in which to make choices to learn which ones are 'good' and which are 'bad'.

Case in point, I have a friend who was raped by her father repeatedly from the time she was 6, until 12. Then, when he left, her mother would hold her down and let anonymous men rape her so her mother could get drugs. Do you think she is capable of making a good decision? Of course not. She's so messed up in the head from the trauma that was done to her, its not hard to wonder why she's been in and out of jail several times for aiding and abetting others who committed crimes for drugs. To her, that's just normal.

But rather than lock her away for her entire life, we as a society have an opportunity to help her (and others like her) understand right from wrong by creating a "rehabilitative" prison where no one rapes her, and she gets to wake up every day in a place that gives her purpose, and something infinitely more valuable, hope.

What you guys are talking about isn't a helping hand. I didn't grow up in an environment remotely close to your description and i dont need someone to tell me stealing is wrong, defrauding someone is wrong, and any of that shit. You either make good choices on your own or your not worth spending money on.

I can get on board for some instances like the one you described but the vast majority make their choices based on what they want. I wouldn't advocate a death penalty to a starving person hit by hard times. I would however advocate it for the same offense for someone that isn't starving and not hit by hard times on their third strike. They had 2 free bees and only care about themselves.

Im also not advocating our prison system is the best environment. I do believe they need to get certain items under control ie rape and gangs. However it is still a system set up to punish and i firmly believe thats how it should be. I also believe the punishment should fit the crime up to repeat offenders. I also believe a criminal sitting in jail should have next to no rights and most certainly should not be allowed to file lawsuits because they dont like the food or they are being treated nicely.

Im all for helping those that can be helped but we have to at some point say enough is enough im sorry about your past but this can not go on any longer.

**deathgodusmc** · 08-25-12, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

I agree that rehabilitation is the way to go over retribution, but I go further and say we also need to allow people to start fresh once they are released. Once they serve their time and complete their probation, they should get the right to vote back. They shouldn't be passed over for employment because of their record. Yes, I know that is a major hurdle for most people to get over, but if we continue to treat people like criminals once they serve their debt to society, they will continue to act like criminals.

I think that should be more on what kind of crime they commited. Murders, rapists, and so forth should not be included in that group. I do believe if you spent a year in jail or what have you for theft, mj, and other minor offenses its a fine line for what an employer needs to know. I as a business owner think i have the right to know if the guy im considering hiring has had 2 fairly recent conviction for theft.

However if its been 10 years i think its fairly safe to say they learned something in life. The records should be maintained but sealed for outside sources. I could go with something like that as a business owner. I also dont need to know if someone had a dui 20 years ago. I do need to know if it been within several years though.

**-Lazarus-** · 08-25-12, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ranger10

But everyone needs a helping hand at some point right? It's part of the "social contract". Not everyone gets to grow up in a nice Martha Stewart home where mommy's and daddy's create a healthy environment in which to make choices to learn which ones are 'good' and which are 'bad'.

Case in point, I have a friend who was raped by her father repeatedly from the time she was 6, until 12. Then, when he left, her mother would hold her down and let anonymous men rape her so her mother could get drugs. Do you think she is capable of making a good decision? Of course not. She's so messed up in the head from the trauma that was done to her, its not hard to wonder why she's been in and out of jail several times for aiding and abetting others who committed crimes for drugs. To her, that's just normal.

But rather than lock her away for her entire life, we as a society have an opportunity to help her (and others like her) understand right from wrong by creating a "rehabilitative" prison where no one rapes her, and she gets to wake up every day in a place that gives her purpose, and something infinitely more valuable, hope.

Such a sad story. But unfortunately the majority of people in prison are mentally ill, usually with NPD or BPD or some other severe disorder. For example, you don't rehabilitate a violent psychopath. You protect society from his behavior.

The behavior of criminals generally starts with people not learning coping skills during childhood development and of course trauma suffered like the poor girl you described. Once people get past a certain age the best that can be done is to protect others from them. It is an absolute tragedy but unless others are protected there is a risk of those people passing the same problems along. I'm sure everyone involved in abusing that poor girl was broken in some way themselves but in the end analysis, who gives a shit. That girl needed to be protected from them.

**-Lazarus-** · 08-25-12, 07:03 PM

I'm just saying it is rare that a violent, anti-social criminal will ever be "rehabilitated".

**Fovezer** · 08-26-12, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I think that should be more on what kind of crime they commited. Murders, rapists, and so forth should not be included in that group. I do believe if you spent a year in jail or what have you for theft, mj, and other minor offenses its a fine line for what an employer needs to know. I as a business owner think i have the right to know if the guy im considering hiring has had 2 fairly recent conviction for theft.

However if its been 10 years i think its fairly safe to say they learned something in life. The records should be maintained but sealed for outside sources. I could go with something like that as a business owner. I also dont need to know if someone had a dui 20 years ago. I do need to know if it been within several years though.

I think this is a pretty good solution. I do think business owners should know about any recent convictions because if it is something like theft, it's understandable to be wary of hiring a person like that, but we also shouldn't let a mistake define the rest of someone's life. So maybe something like you said is a good compromise, and I could go along with that.

**dex71** · 08-26-12, 07:21 AM

Getting back to the OP......When you kill 77 people in cold blood, there is no rehabilitation. Dude needs to die. Giving him 21 years is a slap in the face to the victims and their families. He got 3.6 months of jail time for each of his 77 murders. That doesn't even come close to justice.