And it begins.

**SmokenScion** · 10-26-12, 02:54 PM

Had a wonderful Idea to start slave labor business, but these Damn Workers rights laws keep getting in the way! Grrr.

**Fovezer** · 10-26-12, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Im saying do it right or throw it the fuck out. If we are going to put the government in the middle of our healthcare then they should be footing the bill at the end of our trip. All this pos is going to do is jack heath costs thru the roof. As if we didnt already have a big enough problem with that.

Despite your tired parroting of right-wing claims that this putting government in the middle of our healthcare, it isn't. Not even close. I DO support a single-payer system and want it to get passed, but it won't. The Republicans would never allow it and I don't even know if all the Democrats would be on board with it. But this system we have right now is capitalistic, and I thought capitalism was the solution to all the problems?

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

For all the fuck hobby lobby people. Fuck your opinion and what you want. A business should be able to run how it wants to run. If you dont like the way that company runs go somewhere else. Pretty simple.

They can run their business how they want, but they cannot tell their workers how they should live their lives and what medical decisions they can or cannot make. That is fucking atrocious right there, and in no way should be allowed. So fuck Hobby Lobby's overreaching and fuck this pathetic defense of them just because you don't like the health care bill.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

My opinion of this bill is if i showed up to work and did a half ass job i would expect to be called out on it and fix it on my own dime. This should be no different. If you think its ok that they did a half ass job while shrugging your shoulders saying "well its better then nothing" then your part of the problem. Hold these fuckers responsible for doing a half ass job.

It IS better than nothing because it was either this OR nothing, and this is better than the old status quo. You are one of those idealists that think if we really wanted to get the perfect bill passed, we could. Well, we can't. Lobbyist money from insurance companies and an extremely right-wing Congress simply will not allow for a better option. Hell, they wouldn't even allow a public option to be included in the bill. You're expecting a bunch of monkeys with typewriters to come up with a perfect bill, and that is hopelessly naive.

**deathgodusmc** · 10-26-12, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Despite your tired parroting of right-wing claims that this putting government in the middle of our healthcare, it isn't. Not even close. I DO support a single-payer system and want it to get passed, but it won't. The Republicans would never allow it and I don't even know if all the Democrats would be on board with it. But this system we have right now is capitalistic, and I thought capitalism was the solution to all the problems?

Right wing claims? Im just stating what is fact for what has happened every single time in the past without fail. As it stands it will remain capitalistic and will follow the same pattern that has already been set. Costs will go up.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

They can run their business how they want, but they cannot tell their workers how they should live their lives and what medical decisions they can or cannot make. That is fucking atrocious right there, and in no way should be allowed. So fuck Hobby Lobby's overreaching and fuck this pathetic defense of them just because you don't like the health care bill.

Yes they can live their lives how they feel and make their own decisions without a company being forced to bend to their will. Funny hobby lobby being forced is fine but a person choosing a different health plan is an atrocity. So as long as the company is forced its ok. Typical employee stand point.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

It IS better than nothing because it was either this OR nothing, and this is better than the old status quo. You are one of those idealists that think if we really wanted to get the perfect bill passed, we could. Well, we can't. Lobbyist money from insurance companies and an extremely right-wing Congress simply will not allow for a better option. Hell, they wouldn't even allow a public option to be included in the bill. You're expecting a bunch of monkeys with typewriters to come up with a perfect bill, and that is hopelessly naive.

No its isnt better then nothing. Once again though you seem to think lobbyist money only makes its way to right winged politicians. Extremely naive on your part. So no i dont expect a bunch of monkeys to pass or type anything. I expect OUR employees to do what they are paid for and thinking there is a better way to go about that is also naive. Passively thinking it will get done as you do is how things NEVER get fixed.

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 04:06 PM

Where's the separation of church and state now?

A business is NOT "State". It's not owned by the government, any more than a citizen is. It is only taxed by it.

It seems pretty convenient that when people of faith want something "religious" in nature, people decry about how the two should never mix. Yet, when its a business, owned by faith based individuals, the government is right in the middle of it.

Would anyone here support companies who hired ONLY people who shared their faith? It's discrimination.

**CivilWars** · 10-26-12, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

It may be their business but it's our country. They've been given the privilege of owing a business and may do so as long it conforms to certain rules that 'The People' place on it. Otherwise, they are free to open a business elsewhere.

Kinda like you did?

Funny how you want to tell businesses to do it our way or GTFO, but when they GTFO by moving operations elsewhere you want to bitch about that too.

**taog** · 10-26-12, 04:19 PM

A christian Saudi Arabia? Where do you get this shit? Something tells me if this were a group of Muslims with a company, they probably could do what ever the fuck they wanted. Looks like the government will tell us what we need and don't need after all.

**Gumby** · 10-26-12, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Hey Gumby, is that your car in your sig?

If so, what's your top speed auf der autobahn?

OT, but yep, that's my favorite toy. My pucker factor in that one is at 150 mph. I have driven other cars faster but they were much larger and heavier. The speed limiter on the stock tune is 160,but I set that at 186. She has the power to get there, but I lack the will.

Back on track, DG, since the system relies on employers providing the insurance, it is not fair for them to get to decide on what is and is not covered. Suppose a company run by a Jehovah's Witness family decided that they would not allow insurance that covers blood transfusions. Are you okay with that? And wouldn't a businessesman be able to say he is a Christian Scientist and therefore he should be exempt from providing any insurance since he doesn't believe in modern medicine? Or a Scientologist could not provide coverage for mental health. Or worse a shrewd businesses may falsely claim one of those just to save a buck on a crappy policy. And just expecting someone who doesn't like it to work somewhere else is not realistic.

Sent from the land of bier and bretzels on my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk

**Fovezer** · 10-26-12, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Right wing claims? Im just stating what is fact for what has happened every single time in the past without fail. As it stands it will remain capitalistic and will follow the same pattern that has already been set. Costs will go up.

It's not a fact, it's a made up myth. Government is not being put "in the middle" of our health care. And I'm someone who advocates far more government involvement in health insurance. And if costs are going up, why are you complaining? Isn't that capitalism at work?

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Yes they can live their lives how they feel and make their own decisions without a company being forced to bend to their will. Funny hobby lobby being forced is fine but a person choosing a different health plan is an atrocity. So as long as the company is forced its ok. Typical employee stand point.

Personally, I don't believe a persons health insurance should be tied to their employment. It's a terrible system, which is why I support what I do. That said, with the system we have, I absolutely support not allowing companies to dictate to their employees what is acceptable treatments and what isn't. What's next, instead of a religious nutjob we'll have a anti-vaccine nutjob want to not have to cover vaccines? Fuck that noise.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

No its isnt better then nothing. Once again though you seem to think lobbyist money only makes its way to right winged politicians. Extremely naive on your part. So no i dont expect a bunch of monkeys to pass or type anything. I expect OUR employees to do what they are paid for and thinking there is a better way to go about that is also naive. Passively thinking it will get done as you do is how things NEVER get fixed.

Oh, no, I never said lobbyist money only made its way to right-winged politicians. It makes it's way to Democrats, too, which is why we started at where we did and not at Medicare-for-all as a starting point. This bill was never meant to replace our system with anything better, which would take profits out of health insurance as it should be, it was meant to make the system we have now marginally better, which it did.

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

They can run their business how they want, but they cannot tell their workers how they should live their lives and what medical decisions they can or cannot make. That is fucking atrocious right there, and in no way should be allowed. So fuck Hobby Lobby's overreaching and fuck this pathetic defense of them just because you don't like the health care bill.

Couple comments on this...

To begin, they aren't telling their employees what medical decisions to make, or how to live. They are simply stating, we aren't going to pay for it. They are still free to find any and all means at their disposal to get the treatment they seek.

Only the US Government is a democratic (republic) entity. Businesses, ALL BUSINESSES, are benevolent dictators in the purest form. You think the military is a democracy? Not even close. I, as a small business owner, am more like Hitler in how I handle my daily business, than Obama will ever be as Commander and Chief. The CEO doesn't make decisions based on what everyone in the company wants. The problem US citizens have, is when dictators try to run governments. But no business owner will tell you they want to check with everyone before they make a decision. We are a country of dictators, held together by democratic paranoia to make sure none of us stays in power very long.

Now... we force companies to do things all the time. We force them to hire minority workers, women, and expect them to make decisions based on the good of the individual over the welfare of their first priority, the health of the business itself. While I disagree with some of that in principle, I can see how racist people have been overlooking more qualified workers based on racist reasons. So I can see why its there. I would LOVE to see the government tell a Muslim business owner to hire women at the same rate as men.

But that's not what is going on here. This is the US government telling a business it HAS to pay for something, directly against the faith-based ideology of the company owners. That's government getting right in the middle of church and state. That door swings both ways. We don't want Priest and Pastors in government making decisions based on faith, nor should the government be making laws which violate that faith.

**Fovezer** · 10-26-12, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by taog

A christian Saudi Arabia? Where do you get this shit? Something tells me if this were a group of Muslims with a company, they probably could do what ever the fuck they wanted. Looks like the government will tell us what we need and don't need after all.

They'd fall under the same requirements, why wouldn't they? But this is the United States, where Christians think they should be allowed to impose their religious views on everyone else like the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia do. Hence, a Christian Saudi Arabia.