And it begins.

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gumby

Back on track, DG, since the system relies on employers providing the insurance, it is not fair for them to get to decide on what is and is not covered. Suppose a company run by a Jehovah's Witness family decided that they would not allow insurance that covers blood transfusions. Are you okay with that? And wouldn't a businessesman be able to say he is a Christian Scientist and therefore he should be exempt from providing any insurance since he doesn't believe in modern medicine? Or a Scientologist could not provide coverage for mental health. Or worse a shrewd businesses may falsely claim one of those just to save a buck on a crappy policy. And just expecting someone who doesn't like it to work somewhere else is not realistic.

So don't work for them.

Get secondary insurance that will cover the items your employer won't. Now... the moment your employer fires you for receiving benefits from another insurer that violates their beliefs, I will stand right next to you in the picket line.

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

They'd fall under the same requirements, why wouldn't they? But this is the United States, where Christians think they should be allowed to impose their religious views on everyone else like the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia do. Hence, a Christian Saudi Arabia.

How do Christians impose their belief's on you?

**Fovezer** · 10-26-12, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ranger10

But that's not what is going on here. This is the US government telling a business it HAS to pay for something, directly against the faith-based ideology of the company owners. That's government getting right in the middle of church and state. That door swings both ways. We don't want Priest and Pastors in government making decisions based on faith, nor should the government be making laws which violate that faith.

I have a few questions based on this. Do you support the employer-based insurance system we have today or would you prefer a different system? If so, which kind? Would you support a single-payer system like Medicare-for-all?

That said, your faith shouldn't exempt you from laws or regulations when it comes to business. I don't believe business owners should be allowed to make decisions about what is covered under their insurance plans for their employees. That is, in my view, imposing your beliefs on employees who may not share your same beliefs. Wasn't the whole right-wing talking point was that they didn't want the government to get involved in their medical decisions? But now we are allowing businesses to make those decisions?

**triggerhappy2005** · 10-26-12, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

No its our country. Your in France. Then you have the whole we have been given the privilege of owning a company. No one gave that to us. We spent our money to get the license, insurances, buildings, payroll, bills, and so on. The people can shove their restrictions up their ass. The have a vote when they own a higher percentage of my company then i do. Until then they can sit in the corner and keep their mouth shut. Now when the people or the government is covering my expenses we can talk about their vote in my company.

I pay my taxes to the US government. There for I have every right to weigh in on this subject.

You need to stop the France nonsense. I'm an American citizen just like you. I pay taxes just like you. I simply reside outside the country.

**Fovezer** · 10-26-12, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ranger10

How do Christians impose their belief's on you?

I said "want to," not that they've always been successful. Various Christian groups want to ban or stop various things. You have the anti-science Christians who want to make kids dumber by not teaching them basic science like evolution. You have the anti-gay Christians who want to stop gays from having equal rights. You have the anti-women Christians who want to make medical decisions for women or to force them to undergo unnecessary invasive medical procedures. You have those Christians who want to force prayer in school or support government sanction of religious events and displays.

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

I have a few questions based on this. Do you support the employer-based insurance system we have today or would you prefer a different system? If so, which kind? Would you support a single-payer system like Medicare-for-all?

That said, your faith shouldn't exempt you from laws or regulations when it comes to business. I don't believe business owners should be allowed to make decisions about what is covered under their insurance plans for their employees. That is, in my view, imposing your beliefs on employees who may not share your same beliefs. Wasn't the whole right-wing talking point was that they didn't want the government to get involved in their medical decisions? But now we are allowing businesses to make those decisions?

I support a system where companies have a plethora of insuring options, just like any market. It would be a market based solution. If an insurance company doesn't have a plan to cover contraceptives, or the pill, or whatever, then they would be losing business because employers would be looking for coverage plans which included that.

That's the power of the free market.

If your product is inferior, your business will, and should, die to make way for the one which meets the needs. Employers who ignore the needs of their employees won't be in business for long. You could make a strong argument for that concerning Hobby Lobby, and I think that would be a better angle in this case.

Anyway... competition is the BEST way to make sure the price is low, and product is as good as it can be.

Also,

You're right, faith shouldn't exempt you. But neither should the government be allowed to impose its will on you if your faith prohibits it. That's no different than Christians trying to impose their will in the classrooms, or through gay rights, etc.

YOU are the government. And YOU, the government are telling ME, the faith based business owner, that I have to compromise my faith through a law, aka, Obamacare.

Unlike a Christian organization which tries to affect policy through talking, and demonstration, the government affects policy by saying, "This is law, do it, or we throw you in jail." See the difference?

**taog** · 10-26-12, 04:59 PM

Lets say that Christians had way more control of shit than they do now. Do you really think it would be like Saudi Arabia?

**Ranger10** · 10-26-12, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

I said "want to," not that they've always been successful. Various Christian groups want to ban or stop various things. You have the anti-science Christians who want to make kids dumber by not teaching them basic science like evolution. You have the anti-gay Christians who want to stop gays from having equal rights. You have the anti-women Christians who want to make medical decisions for women or to force them to undergo unnecessary invasive medical procedures. You have those Christians who want to force prayer in school or support government sanction of religious events and displays.

Also, in a twist...

While homosexual marriage isn't necessarily a religion, I don't support the government telling people they can't marry based on gender. That's the same exact thing as telling Catholics they have to pay for things against their religion.

I will NEVER support the government telling people what they can or cannot do in the privacy of their own home, with rare exception like child porn, rape or anything else considered harmful to someone else.

**taog** · 10-26-12, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fovezer

I said "want to," not that they've always been successful. Various Christian groups want to ban or stop various things. You have the anti-science Christians who want to make kids dumber by not teaching them basic science like evolution. You have the anti-gay Christians who want to stop gays from having equal rights. You have the anti-women Christians who want to make medical decisions for women or to force them to undergo unnecessary invasive medical procedures. You have those Christians who want to force prayer in school or support government sanction of religious events and displays.

I just wanted to say that there are many Christians that think all of that shit is unfair as well. I don't know much about it, but religious scientist get flack for this divine intervention stuff, it isn't always black and white.

**Nuckle** · 10-26-12, 05:15 PM

This falls into the same category as vision, dental or if it existed a cosmetic surgery plan. If a company chooses to not cover a pill that takes care of your mistake because it does not feel it should and that is spelled out in their program then you can accept it our find other means of insurance. There are other drugs that self insured companies do not cover besides these. The only reason why people have their panties in a bunch is because it is about religion.