Hospitals, Costs, Design and earlier "threadnaughts"

**Alundil** · 03-04-13, 05:07 PM

As some of you may know, I work for a hospital and have for 10 years. I've been involved in quite a few "discussions" related to healthcare, and, more often than not, costs thereof (perceived or otherwise).

There was, many months ago, a long-ish thread by TPG standards, that spent a not insignificant amount of memory and cache someplace on costs and hospitals and renovations and terms like "luxury" were bandied about evoking imagery of fat-cat well to do ne'er do wells lording it up in their private rooms afforded them by the labor of the proletariat slaving away below them and through the financial rape of those self-same proletariat by the very hospitals at issue.

I realize that the above was rife with hyperbole and paraphrasing...I know. I use that, specifically, to setup the article linked below which provides some of the scientific reasoning behind many of the decisions made by hospitals in regards to private rooms and upgrades in new build-outs and renovations. Does this justify egregious practices in costing or accounting or billing? No, of course not. I merely offer it up as supporting documentation and as a nod to the overarching principle of those hospitals how have been much maligned over the issue. It's not always about their profit regardless of whether the patient/payer is aware of or not. In many cases, things (like this) can be very beneficial to the patient without their knowledge or understanding at all.

How Much Should Be Spent Beautifying Hospitals? - Lindsay Abrams - The Atlantic

But while indulgence surely occurs for indulgence's sake, numerous studies have established that the environment -- its colors, sounds, and other design characteristics aside from its cleanliness -- may have a direct influence on health and healing.

Design decisions that increase safety and reduce infection, of course, will save money. In cases where holistic advantages have been shown to complement measurable health outcomes, such efforts are easier to rationalize. For example, it was first noted in 1920, in the Journal of the American Medical Association, that keeping patients in private rooms helps keep infection from spreading. It also makes it easier for doctors and nurses to do their jobs. Most importantly, private rooms end up being more cost-efficient. But they also accommodate a patient's social support network, and allow sensitive conversations to occur in privacy. And by reducing noise and traffic, they're believed to ease a patient's stress. While such outcomes might be a hard sell as the primary justification for using private rooms, studies have supported all of these theories.

**dex71** · 03-04-13, 10:21 PM

I did a 7 day stint a few years ago. Had a GREAT surgeon, but had to share a room. Never again. If I had to do it again, I would find a way to "upgrade", or find a different hospital.

**Gumby** · 03-05-13, 12:30 AM

I don't think I have seen a beautiful hospital here in Germany. And with three sons, I have seen a few hospitals. But I have always gotten better health care at lower prices than stateside.

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**triggerhappy2005** · 03-05-13, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Gumby

I don't think I have seen a beautiful hospital here in Germany. And with three sons, I have seen a few hospitals. But I have always gotten better health care at lower prices than stateside.

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That's because healthcare in Western Europe is not a profit driven business. In Germany you're considered a patient not a customer.

**Alundil** · 03-05-13, 02:26 AM

And the merry go round will spin now.

You know...I don't have the energy or the inclination to left bad....no right bad....no capitalism no no socialism....

Fuck it - I was simply bringing to light one of the reasons why those decisions are being made, here, in the states. No political bent. Simply bringing information. This shit bores the hell out of me cause there are never any changed opinions. I simply brought new info with some scietific backing.

Anyways - this forum can go back to its slow decline into irrelevancy.

**DJ Ms. White** · 03-05-13, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Alundil

And the merry go round will spin now.

You know...I don't have the energy or the inclination to left bad....no right bad....no capitalism no no socialism....

Fuck it - I was simply bringing to light one of the reasons why those decisions are being made, here, in the states. No political bent. Simply bringing information. This shit bores the hell out of me cause there are never any changed opinions. I simply brought new info with some scietific backing.

Anyways - this forum can go back to its slow decline into irrelevancy.

You know, someone special in the head did suggest to only have it election season.

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**SmokenScion** · 03-05-13, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by DJ Mr. White

You know, someone special in the head did suggest to only have it election season.

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But page views......and stuff to do for the Non-gamers still lingering around.

**triggerhappy2005** · 03-05-13, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Alundil

And the merry go round will spin now.

You know...I don't have the energy or the inclination to left bad....no right bad....no capitalism no no socialism....

Fuck it - I was simply bringing to light one of the reasons why those decisions are being made, here, in the states. No political bent. Simply bringing information. This shit bores the hell out of me cause there are never any changed opinions. I simply brought new info with some scietific backing.

Anyways - this forum can go back to its slow decline into irrelevancy.

Stop being so goddam sensitive. This forum began it's decline when it was decided that we couldn't talk about commander's tin foil hat anymore. Everybody was getting butthurt because a little shit was getting tossed so we had to become more 'civil' even though we play kill each other and call each other's moms bad names. Nice paradox.

If you've ever experienced healthcare in the US and Europe, like Gumby and myself have, you wouldn't need scientific evidence to see the difference.

**Alundil** · 03-05-13, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

This forum began it's decline when it was decided that we couldn't talk about commander's tin foil hat anymore. Everybody was getting butthurt because a little shit was getting tossed

You're right. Those were the only reasons....keep telling yourself that. It was hardly "little shit getting tossed" most of the time, but I'll not bother trying to disabuse you of that notion as it's pointless.

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

so we had to become more 'civil' even though we play kill each other and call each other's moms bad names. Nice paradox.

Immaterial, specifically as one is a "game in which the objective is to kill your opponent" and the other is a forum in which detailed discussion is supposed to take place. Here, in this forum, more than any of the others we ought to be trying to refrain from the exact bullshit you seem to revel in as it is anathema to useful discussion and/or debate.

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

If you've ever experienced healthcare in the US and Europe, like Gumby and myself have, you wouldn't need scientific evidence to see the difference.

As for healthcare in America vs Europe. This post wasn't about the differences (which are many) or the pros or cons (there are many of those too). This was simply about one aspect of the American Healthcare system. Nothing more nothing less.

Originally Posted by triggerhappy2005

Stop being so goddam sensitive.

As for sensitive....It's not sensitivity so much as it's just weariness. Fatigue from the ridiculously apparent lack of thought in evidence here. Fatigue from seeing the people post the same tired p/a jabs at the other same people. Just tired of the same old tired bullshit creeping into and shitting up any and all discussions that might be be somewhat different than the same ole same ole endless loop of "x is better than y because * says so" <insert superiority>
FFS - have a debate. Discuss a point. Point/counter-point. Instead of immediately opting for the low road.

Patients are "patients" in Europe, but "customers" in America

That ^ would be because 'merica is only greedy and sick people are great ways to make $$ I guess. Real productive and insightful. Derailed, first page. Nicely done.

An interesting discussion might be (and btw you missed that opportunity) to discuss the cultural and societal differences and expectations between America and Europe and how that impacts healthcare and informs the various populations. But no....

But this is why this forum is going to shit. Not because the monkeys in the Zoo can no longer fling poo at each other without surcease. It's because people are good and fucking fed up with the poo flinging. If you were privy to the last several massive discussions about this forum in particular that would be painfully evident. People are tired of the level of discourse on this particular part of the forum and have been for a good long time. But by all means, continue your misconception and believe that it had anything at all to do with any former admin on this site period.

I can tell you, frankly and honestly, that it didn't. You can believe me or not though. Your call.

**Alundil** · 03-05-13, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Alundil

An interesting discussion might be (and btw you missed that opportunity) to discuss the cultural and societal differences and expectations between America and Europe and how that impacts healthcare and informs the various populations.

Here are some interesting things I've found on the subject ^ over the years

http://www.euro.who.int/__data/asset...160/e95981.pdf

This place is currently undergoing a 1.8 (euro) renovation project.
http://www.karolinska.se/upload/Geme...eng_nov_05.pdf
But it strikes me as pretty damned similar to some of the mega hospitals here in the US in terms of scope, budget, beds, patient visits etc etc.

Here's a memo from the European Investment Bank discussing loan amounts for euro-zone hospital renovations.It's from '99 but lists sums totaling 2.22b (euro) disbursed by then already. No telling what that number is now.
European Investment Bank finances hospital modernisation in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and renovation of apartment blocks

Here's a really (I mean it) interesting paper on hospitals, particularly in Europe.
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/asset...401/E74486.pdf

See what I mean? There's a wealth of information to consume, digest and discuss. Far more than is done justice by the "europe good, merica bad" meme.

They are different for many different reasons which are impossible to encapsulate in a one-liner with the sole purpose to malign.