Thread: SCOTUS decides on Prop 8 :D

Originally Posted by Ranger10

I still maintain that our government, founded on Biblical principles, should not deemed itself capable of defining anything. Since it's become increasingly clear that people are not willing to allow Biblical precepts to act as a guide for their lives, and daily seek to remove those core foundations from the underpinnings of America, then I suggest you remove them ALL, including the idea of marriage, not just the ones you don't like. Otherwise, its the height of hypocrisy to assume otherwise.

This is true equality. Not "separate but equal", truly equal. Isn't that was this whole thing is about? Equality?

As I have already posited, no it is not about equality. It is about destroying the Judeo-Christian tradition this country was founded on, one piece at a time.

Next up, with this crowd, we get into the pointless discussion about how the founders weren't really Christians and how they didn't want religion... All of which is completely nonsense as well. The irony here is just... Delicious.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

As I have already posited, no it is not about equality. It is about destroying the Judeo-Christian tradition this country was founded on, one piece at a time.

That's a little extreme don't you think? These people wan't to have the same rights as everyone else. Their intent is not to destroy the Judeo-Christian tradition. I see how changing the definition of "marriage" could have adverse effects on how it translates within the church. As I said, I understand Rangers point about them calling it a "marriage" and wanting to call it something else, like a civil union or something along those lines.The founders also wanted freedom and liberty for all, they said that every man was created equal.

You can't just pick and choose facts that are convenient to your argument. This is a very difficult situation, from the church's eyes changing the definition of the term "marriage" to allow same sex couples would belittle its meaning, to the contrary changing the definition of the term would give millions of people the same rights that we (straight) already enjoy. Really, I think the best argument that satisfies both sides is to simply change the word to something else for everybody. As Ranger mentioned, that's not separate but equal, that is true equality. Also I make this statement with the presumption that "marriage" really is a religious term, if it's not then I see no problem in changing the definition.

Edit: Also I'm glad I read Rangers argument, prior to reading that I just assumed that anyone against "gay marriage" was extremely arrogant. How could someone vote to deny another a right when it doesn't effect them in any way? Never mind the fact that the right is something that will make that person very happy and one that most of us are already entitled to. I see now that it's not that simple, they're not necessarily against everyone having equal rights, they're more against the adverse effects it will have on their religion if the term "marriage" is redefined to something they don't believe in. That argument is not offensive to me in the least, it is a legitimate and honest argument from their perspective. Also, I almost hate to point this out, but liberals are always claiming to be so open minded and tolerant of other peoples viewpoints and religions. Which may be true in most cases, but I notice that they are extremely closed minded and and non tolerant of the conservative view point and religion (Christianity).

Originally Posted by Morningfrost

The answer is....the Church eventually changed their stance on things like slavery. If you read the bible, it refers multiple times to slavery as a legitimate practice, both in the Old and New Testaments. The Church is certainly capable of changing it's viewpoint on something....but it's generally a very slow process, as is change in ANY large bureaucracy. At some point I hope the Church's viewpoint changes enough to be accepting of homosexuality, but I don't think it will be anytime soon.

And for those who would say that the bible specifically condemns homosexuality....the bible also specifically condones slavery (and also wasn't all that opposed to rape, as long as restitution was made), and yet those things are now condemned. Who's to say the opposite won't happen with homosexuality?

Slavery is never defined as a sin in the bible, Nor is it specifically approved of. The bible describes a time when slavery was the norm, that is all. It tells Christians who find themselves to be enslaved how to behave toward their masters and it tells slave owners how to behave toward slaves. The Bible doesn't deal specifically with the social issue of slavery, except that God did not want His people to be enslaved, so He freed them. Some may use the bible as justification for whatever they do, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Bible actually applies that logic anywhere in it. That doesn't mean that one can't see the obvious problems and injustices with slavery and how it may go against general Biblical teachings, but there is no specific "slavery is a sin" silver bullet to be found.

On the other hand, Homosexuality is very clearly defined as sinful behavior in the Bible, in multiple places.

You are comparing apples and oranges Frost. This likely comes from not reading scripture, so I can understand why, and I can appreciate when a non-believer associates things we all think are good with the Bible but realize that you have made a very basic mistake in your logic here.

Society disapproved of slavery over time. The Bible doesn't address it. With regard to slavery, I think you need to replace the phrase "the church" with "society". If a specific church made the mistake of condoning slavery and used scripture to justify it, well, they were wrong.

Also Maf, there is one final issue that most Christians feel when dealing with the issue of gay marriage. For most, the Bible is the Living Word of God. Like any holy text you'd find around the world, Christians believe they are the ordained words of God connecting the human heart, and human condition with the God of creation. I know it sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo to those reading who have no clue what I'm talking about, but its there regardless. Most people will naturally use the reason that since Jesus himself never said it in the gospels, that it doesn't have to be adhered to anymore. That is a doctrinal difference that would take more kilobytes than the internet has to explain fully. Needless to say, those who ignore all the Bible, or simply read what they want to make it fit, are not acting in accordance with the basic precepts it commands in numerous places. While something like slavery was never considered a sin, like Laz pointed out, homosexuality is specifically referred to as such.

So when when someone proposes that we allow homosexuals to marry, then not only are we redefining marriage (something that distorts a word that means something very important to Christians), but by our vote, or worse, our inaction, we feel we are condoning sin. Now, ultimately the choice is up to the person. A true Christian, or someone who has a relationship with God, will never use homosexuality as a means to condemn. Any "christian" that spews hate and acidic personal attacks over this subject has no idea what they are talking about, and are in fact, the real problem. The Bible says in 1 John 4:20 (yes 4:20),

"If anyone says, 'I love God', yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."

In 1 John 2:9 it says,

"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in darkness."

Westboro Baptist Church, which isn't a church that loves God in any form or fashion, let alone knows Him, is using the name of a "church" to spread its hate. Not a single one of them is a Christian, despite what they tell you. They could call themselves "The Order of Hitler" and it would be more appropriate. They are a hate group, and their vitriol, is beyond measure. They are your enemy, not me. If there was a gay couple getting married, I would defend them against WBC every day of the week.

I have many friends who are gay, and even a few family members. In fact, some may be reading this now. They are in every way some of the most important people in my life, and some are like brothers who I would lay down my life for. They mean that much to me. So the last thing in world I want to do is condone a series of choices that I feel leads to their death. I basically look at it this way...

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe and do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate." -- Rick Warren

But people assume that to disagree with someone, means we are arrogant, hateful, and simply wanting them to conform to our lifestyle. Let me be clear, the choice is ALWAYS yours. All I can ever do is be there to help you up when the world breaks you down. I can show you a better way, but its not always easy. When a atheist experiences pain, they either blame a "god" they don't believe in for letting something bad happen, or call it life. While some Christians may experience the exact same issue and walk away feeling like God brought a challenge in to their lives to grow them as a person.

Read the book of Job to understand what I mean. It's also the oldest book in the Bible (most believe). And yes, it talks about marriage.

So yes... while there is a significant desire on the part of Christians to retain the meaning behind marriage. It's a symbol of Christs relationship with the church. Its an intimate, holy and sacred relationship the secular world has kind of adopted because it makes sense on a lot of levels. But there is also a significant motivator to NOT be apart of an action that leads to the corruption of the human spirit. And the Bible specifically states that homosexuality is just that. To simply ignore, or accept the idea is something that I care for my friends too much to sit by idly and watch it happen.

So I make arguments here in this forum, or any other place where I feel the message won't be misconstrued as hate speech. If anyone reading this walks away thinking I hate gay people, or want to deny them State derived rights, then I have failed miserably in my argument. Nothing can be further from the truth. But this is a discussion forum where we can express ideas and share insight. If my opinion is no longer valued, then by all means I will stop posting. There is nothing I can say that is more valuable than upholding the integrity of the message I carry.

I chose to make a post in this forum highlighting a way to provide all of those benefits we as a people enjoy from our STATE. In every way we'd all finally be equal. Because making someone equal to me, is the best way to make them a friend. There is a saying in Christian circles and it is this, "You can't win an enemy to Christ".

I WANT homosexuals to feel equal. In every way that matters. Probably even more than they do. That's how you minister to someone's needs. But I don't want my STATE to be the one that is defining relationships that happen in the bedroom in any way, shape or form. We as a people don't need our government sticking its nose into every facet of our lives just because it can. That's the Republican in me. Yet, because I am also a member of the STATE, my voice, aka my vote, means that to NOT use it to oppose something I spiritually feel leads to death, means that I'm obligated to act in a way contrary to the nature of compassion. When it becomes a STATE issue, I have to oppose it. When its a matter of the heart, then I can approach it a far less hostile way, and it allows me to reach people I couldn't otherwise do. But if we circumvent the whole issue by making everyone equal in the eyes of the state, leave a religious term where it belongs, in church, and provide all those state derived rights for everyone, then there is no issue... on any side. Everyone gets what they want. Gays can be married in a church that will recognize them, and Christians don't have to compromise convictions to accept equal rights, and we all have a state recognized union for civil liberties that make sense from an enumerated contract with a governing body.

There.

Now you know the deepest darkest secret as to why Christians opposed gay marriage. It has nothing to do with hate, though there are many Christians out there who don't understand what I just said. You know every argument I can use in this forum, and while I expect a certain amount of backlash, I would hope that each of you could reflect on what I've said so you understand where I'm coming from. Then you'll know there is no hate whatsoever in my position. I'm sure they will be by any minute to revoke my "secret decoder" ring.

Originally Posted by Ranger10

Also Maf, there is one final issue that most Christians feel when dealing with the issue of gay marriage. For most, the Bible is the Living Word of God. Like any holy text you'd find around the world, Christians believe they are the ordained words of God connecting the human heart, and human condition with the God of creation. I know it sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo to those reading who have no clue what I'm talking about, but its there regardless. Most people will naturally use the reason that since Jesus himself never said it in the gospels, that it doesn't have to be adhered to anymore. That is a doctrinal difference that would take more kilobytes than the internet has to explain fully. Needless to say, those who ignore all the Bible, or simply read what they want to make it fit, are not acting in accordance with the basic precepts it commands in numerous places. While something like slavery was never considered a sin, like Laz pointed out, homosexuality is specifically referred to as such.

So when when someone proposes that we allow homosexuals to marry, then not only are we redefining marriage (something that distorts a word that means something very important to Christians), but by our vote, or worse, our inaction, we feel we are condoning sin. Now, ultimately the choice is up to the person. A true Christian, or someone who has a relationship with God, will never use homosexuality as a means to condemn. Any "christian" that spews hate and acidic personal attacks over this subject has no idea what they are talking about, and are in fact, the real problem. The Bible says in 1 John 4:20 (yes 4:20),

"If anyone says, 'I love God', yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."

In 1 John 2:9 it says,

"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in darkness."

Westboro Baptist Church, which isn't a church that loves God in any form or fashion, let alone knows Him, is using the name of a "church" to spread its hate. Not a single one of them is a Christian, despite what they tell you. They could call themselves "The Order of Hitler" and it would be more appropriate. They are a hate group, and their vitriol, is beyond measure. They are your enemy, not me. If there was a gay couple getting married, I would defend them against WBC every day of the week.

I have many friends who are gay, and even a few family members. In fact, some may be reading this now. They are in every way some of the most important people in my life, and some are like brothers who I would lay down my life for. They mean that much to me. So the last thing in world I want to do is condone a series of choices that I feel leads to their death. I basically look at it this way...

"Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe and do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate." -- Rick Warren

But people assume that to disagree with someone, means we are arrogant, hateful, and simply wanting them to conform to our lifestyle. Let me be clear, the choice is ALWAYS yours. All I can ever do is be there to help you up when the world breaks you down. I can show you a better way, but its not always easy. When a atheist experiences pain, they either blame a "god" they don't believe in for letting something bad happen, or call it life. While some Christians may experience the exact same issue and walk away feeling like God brought a challenge in to their lives to grow them as a person.

Read the book of Job to understand what I mean. It's also the oldest book in the Bible (most believe). And yes, it talks about marriage.

So yes... while there is a significant desire on the part of Christians to retain the meaning behind marriage. It's a symbol of Christs relationship with the church. Its an intimate, holy and sacred relationship the secular world has kind of adopted because it makes sense on a lot of levels. But there is also a significant motivator to NOT be apart of an action that leads to the corruption of the human spirit. And the Bible specifically states that homosexuality is just that. To simply ignore, or accept the idea is something that I care for my friends too much to sit by idly and watch it happen.

So I make arguments here in this forum, or any other place where I feel the message won't be misconstrued as hate speech. If anyone reading this walks away thinking I hate gay people, or want to deny them State derived rights, then I have failed miserably in my argument. Nothing can be further from the truth. But this is a discussion forum where we can express ideas and share insight. If my opinion is no longer valued, then by all means I will stop posting. There is nothing I can say that is more valuable than upholding the integrity of the message I carry.

I chose to make a post in this forum highlighting a way to provide all of those benefits we as a people enjoy from our STATE. In every way we'd all finally be equal. Because making someone equal to me, is the best way to make them a friend. There is a saying in Christian circles and it is this, "You can't win an enemy to Christ".

I WANT homosexuals to feel equal. In every way that matters. Probably even more than they do. That's how you minister to someone's needs. But I don't want my STATE to be the one that is defining relationships that happen in the bedroom in any way, shape or form. We as a people don't need our government sticking its nose into every facet of our lives just because it can. That's the Republican in me. Yet, because I am also a member of the STATE, my voice, aka my vote, means that to NOT use it to oppose something I spiritually feel leads to death, means that I'm obligated to act in a way contrary to the nature of compassion. When it becomes a STATE issue, I have to oppose it. When its a matter of the heart, then I can approach it a far less hostile way, and it allows me to reach people I couldn't otherwise do. But if we circumvent the whole issue by making everyone equal in the eyes of the state, leave a religious term where it belongs, in church, and provide all those state derived rights for everyone, then there is no issue... on any side. Everyone gets what they want. Gays can be married in a church that will recognize them, and Christians don't have to compromise convictions to accept equal rights, and we all have a state recognized union for civil liberties that make sense from an enumerated contract with a governing body.

There.

Now you know the deepest darkest secret as to why Christians opposed gay marriage. It has nothing to do with hate, though there are many Christians out there who don't understand what I just said. You know every argument I can use in this forum, and while I expect a certain amount of backlash, I would hope that each of you could reflect on what I've said so you understand where I'm coming from. Then you'll know there is no hate whatsoever in my position. I'm sure they will be by any minute to revoke my "secret decoder" ring.

AMEN, brother. Totally agree with you on all points. Best summation of the Christian viewpoint there is right here.

Originally Posted by Morningfrost

Actually, it doesn't come from not reading scripture, as in my youth I read the bible a LOT (3 different versions, starting with the Children's Bible when I was very young, to the King James bible when I was around 14-15). While I admit it has been some years since I have read the bible, there are many portions which specifically allow the practice of slavery.

For instance, Leviticus 25:44-46 states That part of scripture does not allow Israelites to own other Israelis, but specifically allows them to purchase slaves from other nations, and even hand them down to children as property inheritance.

I'm not comparing apples and oranges Laz, I'm pointing out that the Churches stance changed over time, even if it coincided with a change in society as well. The bible not only allows slavery but lays out permissions for it, and just as in society as a whole the Church condoned slavery....and yet now that viewpoint has changed. I'm merely hoping that in time, the same thing can happen with homosexuality (in the opposite direction, of course), and something that is referred to as an abomination can be, if not condoned, then at least accepted.

~Morningfrost

With respect to the definition of sinful behavior, I'm sorry Frost but you are most certainly comparing apples and oranges. Slavery is not defined as sinful in the Bible. Homosexual behavior is. It's really that simple. Your post above doesn't support any contrary view to what I already said. As far as acceptance of slavery, the scripture simply provided for rules by which slavery should be handled because slavery was commonplace in biblical times; it did not make statement as to whether or not it was sinful save that if you did not do what it said on the matter you were sinning against God. So IF you were a slave owner those were the rules you needed to follow.

Furthermore, you are referring to Leviticus, which in its essence is the Law that God's people were expected to live by. The entire purpose of the law, as revealed later in scripture, was to demonstrate Mankind's complete inability to ever perfectly follow the law, and therefore demonstrate that man would never be able to be seen as pure enough for heaven by God. Until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who represented the ultimate blood sacrifice to atone for all the sins of mankind, past, present and future. This lesson regarding God's Law was a lesson over 1000 years in the making, and it was necessary for us to understand why we aren't going to make it to heaven on our own accord. All Christians today live under a new covenant that was created when Christ died. The rules laid out in leviticus are not necessary things to be followed by Christians today, but I understand the reference. So any change that happened is strictly related to the fact that God's covenant with His people changed when Christ died on the cross.

Finally, and frankly, the church's stance is irrelevant, unless it is related specifically to what is in scripture. As has been said here before, there are many churches that ignore what scripture says or twist it to their own devices. There are also non-believers who do the same thing. I have to say, that is what it looks like you are trying to do here.

Originally Posted by Morningfrost

Actually, it doesn't come from not reading scripture, as in my youth I read the bible a LOT (3 different versions, starting with the Children's Bible when I was very young, to the King James bible when I was around 14-15). While I admit it has been some years since I have read the bible, there are many portions which specifically allow the practice of slavery.

For instance, Leviticus 25:44-46 states That part of scripture does not allow Israelites to own other Israelis, but specifically allows them to purchase slaves from other nations, and even hand them down to children as property inheritance.

I'm not comparing apples and oranges Laz, I'm pointing out that the Churches stance changed over time, even if it coincided with a change in society as well. The bible not only allows slavery but lays out permissions for it, and just as in society as a whole the Church condoned slavery....and yet now that viewpoint has changed. I'm merely hoping that in time, the same thing can happen with homosexuality (in the opposite direction, of course), and something that is referred to as an abomination can be, if not condoned, then at least accepted.

~Morningfrost

One last thing... You seem to be conflating what is socially permissible with what is defined as sinful in the Bible. A person can choose to do whatever he or she wants, even Christians. We are all responsible for our own choices. If someone chooses to sin, that is their choice to make. Real Christians aren't in the business of killing or controlling people who choose to sin or choose a sinful lifestyle, as say Muslims are. Real Christians simply know what choices a person should be making and are called to continually try to align their own lives and behavior with those teachings, to tell others about the "good news", and lift up others to also do the same.

Judgmental behavior or condemnation or hateful behavior isn't a part of that. So when you use the term "acceptance", that doesn't compute. I can accept that people will decide to sin and behave sinfully, because I deal with it myself, we all deal with it because we are human. But I won't personally accept, condone or welcome behavior that opposes God's revelation through scripture as "ok" with me in order to make someone else feel better about their own sinful behavior. That is asking too much.

Honestly, you can't expect any bible-following church to ever condone homosexual behavior, for that very reason.