Voter Id law ID'd as alien.

**-Lazarus-** · 06-19-13, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by SmokenScion

You've never worked a low paying job have you?
This is also displayed in another AZ law that makes it illegal to Hire Illegals, Yet the Law is never used to convict Businesses, but thoroughly used to convict Employees. Another Point is if there was NO demand for Illegal workers then there would be no illegal workers am I right? Of course I am. Thus your Argument is Invalidated! HA!

**AetheLove** · 06-19-13, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

In some places. Showing and having are different. Florida even has a law saying you must have at least 2 dollars in your possession or your considered a vagrant. Its old as hell. I believe it actually predates debit cards.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't understand the shift in thinking from...

"for some things, you need appropriate documentation or paperwork"

to...

"all individuals must register with a centrally-administered authority and produce on-demand an identity device that the authority can use for a biometric cross-match to verify you against your past history"

It's a fantasy to think that if only we could create a robust ID system we could sort out the bad people and stop bad things from happening.

Not only that;

You've mentioned in this thread, and in previous ones, that there is proof of voter fraud. I think there are two issues here.

First; has it ever happened? Yes, it has.

But second (and I would say more importantly); is it a problem? Everything I've seen - from anecdotal evidence (which is fun, but not that important) to actual studies that have considered the problem - indicates that it is not just not a problem, but that it is almost non-existent.

So I'm left to wonder, what is the motivation for all the hoopla in the media (which I notice has died down since the last election) and all the scare-mongering from politicians?

An interesting side-effect from many of the voter-ID laws as-implemented is that they subtly discourage a significant number of people from bothering to register and vote. In this case, "significant" means "a large enough group, most of whom tend to vote one way over the other, that the results can be affected." We can call that side-effect unfortunate, but I can think of other things to call it.

The only recent voting scandals that come to mind haven't been with local registrars; they've been with state authorities playing partisan games or with state authorities spending huge amounts of money on "electronic" voting machines that are less secure and less traceable.

So I think that those problems are more important.

Either way, can we at least agree that the "$2 cash or you get arrested for vagrancy" is some serious bullshit?

Cheers,

AetheLove

**-Lazarus-** · 06-19-13, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by AetheLove

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't understand the shift in thinking from...

"for some things, you need appropriate documentation or paperwork"

to...

"all individuals must register with a centrally-administered authority and produce on-demand an identity device that the authority can use for a biometric cross-match to verify you against your past history"

It's a fantasy to think that if only we could create a robust ID system we could sort out the bad people and stop bad things from happening.

Not only that;

You've mentioned in this thread, and in previous ones, that there is proof of voter fraud. I think there are two issues here.

First; has it ever happened? Yes, it has.

But second (and I would say more importantly); is it a problem? Everything I've seen - from anecdotal evidence (which is fun, but not that important) to actual studies that have considered the problem - indicates that it is not just not a problem, but that it is almost non-existent.

So I'm left to wonder, what is the motivation for all the hoopla in the media (which I notice has died down since the last election) and all the scare-mongering from politicians?

An interesting side-effect from many of the voter-ID laws as-implemented is that they subtly discourage a significant number of people from bothering to register and vote. In this case, "significant" means "a large enough group, most of whom tend to vote one way over the other, that the results can be affected." We can call that side-effect unfortunate, but I can think of other things to call it.

The only recent voting scandals that come to mind haven't been with local registrars; they've been with state authorities playing partisan games or with state authorities spending huge amounts of money on "electronic" voting machines that are less secure and less traceable.

So I think that those problems are more important.

Either way, can we at least agree that the "$2 cash or you get arrested for vagrancy" is some serious bullshit?

Cheers,

AetheLove

Actually rigging an election with paid fake voters is easier than you might think. You just need to pick certain key precincts to rig, and leave the rest alone. Read more here: True The Vote

Here are some facts from that site:

Here are the facts:

To date, 46 states have prosecuted or convicted cases of voter fraud.
More than 24 million voter registrations are invalid, yet remain on the rolls nation-wide.
There are over 1.8 million dead voters still eligible on the rolls across the country.
More than 2.75 million Americans are registered to vote in more than one state.
True The Vote recently found 99 cases of potential felony interstate voter fraud.
Maryland affiliates of True The Vote uncovered cases of people registering and voting after their respective deaths.
This year, True The Vote uncovered more than 348,000 dead people on the rolls in 27 states.
- California: 49,000
- Florida: 30,000
- Texas: 28,500
- Michigan: 25,000
- Illinois: 24,000
12 Indiana counties have more registered voters than residents.
The Ohio Secretary of State admitted that multiple Ohio counties have more registered voters than residents.
Federal records showed 160 counties in 19 states have over 100 percent voter registration.
The Florida New Majority Education Fund, Democratic Party of Florida and the National Council of La Raza are currently under investigation for alleged voter registration fraud.

Voter fraud is a growing problem. We need a national solution.

Avoid your kneejerk and biased viewpoint and take a look at the video. It's very important.

One more video:

This woman got caught. Voted six times and admitted it proudly. And never got in trouble for it.

Oh and a side note... TrueTheVote was one of the groups targeted and stymied by the IRS. They were made to wait for 3 years for a decision from the IRS. Then they sued the IRS last month.

**WickedTribe** · 06-19-13, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

The instances where people get caught show there is a problem. No fix is perfect. Thats a disingenuous argument to even attempt to make.

Im going to add an example. Most shoplifters dont get caught yet stores spend millions every year on security. The only way to quantify the amount of theft is p&l's. We cant do that with voting but there can be a very real loss applied if those votes are putting people in offices that are willing to keep ignoring the issue and putting programs in place or increasing programs that is readily being taken advantage of by people that have no right to vote.

You didn't answer my question. How do you know that the problem exists, if there's no way to measure it. Similiarly, how will you know that your fix works, if there's no way to measure it?

**-Lazarus-** · 06-19-13, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

You didn't answer my question. How do you know that the problem exists, if there's no way to measure it. Similiarly, how will you know that your fix works, if there's no way to measure it?

Why do you actively advocate a policy that would prevent a way to measure it?

**deathgodusmc** · 06-19-13, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

You didn't answer my question. How do you know that the problem exists, if there's no way to measure it. Similiarly, how will you know that your fix works, if there's no way to measure it?

Because in the last thread we discussed this i gave you proof to include a youtube video from a news station trying to get someone to answer why they voted when they are illegal. Same way we know catching shoplifters works. By removing those trying to continue to commit fraud in cuffs.

**deathgodusmc** · 06-19-13, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by AetheLove

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't understand the shift in thinking from...

"for some things, you need appropriate documentation or paperwork"

to...

"all individuals must register with a centrally-administered authority and produce on-demand an identity device that the authority can use for a biometric cross-match to verify you against your past history"

It's a fantasy to think that if only we could create a robust ID system we could sort out the bad people and stop bad things from happening.

Not only that;

You've mentioned in this thread, and in previous ones, that there is proof of voter fraud. I think there are two issues here.

First; has it ever happened? Yes, it has.

But second (and I would say more importantly); is it a problem? Everything I've seen - from anecdotal evidence (which is fun, but not that important) to actual studies that have considered the problem - indicates that it is not just not a problem, but that it is almost non-existent.

So I'm left to wonder, what is the motivation for all the hoopla in the media (which I notice has died down since the last election) and all the scare-mongering from politicians?

An interesting side-effect from many of the voter-ID laws as-implemented is that they subtly discourage a significant number of people from bothering to register and vote. In this case, "significant" means "a large enough group, most of whom tend to vote one way over the other, that the results can be affected." We can call that side-effect unfortunate, but I can think of other things to call it.

The only recent voting scandals that come to mind haven't been with local registrars; they've been with state authorities playing partisan games or with state authorities spending huge amounts of money on "electronic" voting machines that are less secure and less traceable.

So I think that those problems are more important.

Either way, can we at least agree that the "$2 cash or you get arrested for vagrancy" is some serious bullshit?

Cheers,

AetheLove

I disagree with most of your post up to the 2 dollars. Yeah its bullshit but i cant think of a single time i have ever heard of it being enforced. Maybe because someone like me would tell them to go fuck themselves before i empty my pockets without being arrested first.

**deathgodusmc** · 06-19-13, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by SmokenScion

You've never worked a low paying job have you?
This is also displayed in another AZ law that makes it illegal to Hire Illegals, Yet the Law is never used to convict Businesses, but thoroughly used to convict Employees. Another Point is if there was NO demand for Illegal workers then there would be no illegal workers am I right? Of course I am. Thus your Argument is Invalidated! HA!

I worked low paying jobs. Shit i just left one while taking a break from flooring due to the slow down. I know of 1 business that was punished for using illegals. The fine was 75 grand. Personally i think it should have been higher but i dont see how your trying to connect someone having to have an id to gain employment for 2 low paying jobs. It is fact you must have id to be gain employment. It is a federal requirement for the employer to check your id prior to signing off on your application. Anyone that runs a business for themselves or for someone else knows that.

**AetheLove** · 06-19-13, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Actually rigging an election with paid fake voters is easier than you might think. You just need to pick certain key precincts to rig, and leave the rest alone.

I'm not sure why you think I don't already agree. The way the electoral process works in national elections, getting a few close districts to swing one way or the other can make all the difference. Why do vote-true-ers act like this is some new revelation? Yes - if you can get good information ahead of time, then an entire election can hang on the balance of a couple reporting districts.

Just ask Al Gore.

That's why I'm suspicious of tinkering with the mechanisms. Any changes should be in response to real problems. Any changes should be carefully designed so as to not have "unintended" side-effects.

Paying voters is one way to do that. So is discouraging, intimidating, or disqualifying them. ... or creating traffic problems, or misdirecting voters, or creating labyrinthine residency requirements, or making them pay money to validate the documentation necessary to get their 'free' ID card.

Originally Posted by -Lazarus-

Avoid your kneejerk and biased viewpoint and take a look at the video. It's very important.

This is how you encourage someone?

*pLoNk*

Can I get some third-party confirmation? Am I particularly knee-jerky?

Æ