Thread: Welcome to our Post-Constitutional America.

I present you with this:

United States map of 2010 NPMSRP Police Misconduct Map by County - TargetMap

and this:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/...ymaprb1024.png

and allow you to draw your own conclusions.

Originally Posted by Hocus Pocus

Yes of course. But what trigger is implying is that it's a growing problem. This is where I take a more conservative view and say if anything it's always been a problem , that technology has allowed us to bring to light more so now than before.

So if you wanted to prove me wrong or I wanted to prove myself right I'd look for the number of incidents where police have overstepped boundaries vs the sheer number of traffic an checkpoint stops. If its growing then yes you all are right. BUT that doesn't mean law enforcement as a whole is breaking the law. This is where I got heartburn.

I get what you are saying but I think the overriding point here is that checkpoint stops themselves are unconstitutional, not just the behavior of officers manning them. Restricting someone's right to travel down the road freely and detaining them for any reason for any amount of time without probable cause is illegal. That's the point here, more than anything else. The poor behavior by LEO's as they conduct the stops is just adding insult to injury. And that's my source of heartburn, as you say.

What I just said above is where my reference to treating everyone as a criminal comes from too. Probable cause means that a LEO has to reasonably suspect that there is criminal conduct when they detain you. Pulling you over is detaining you, and it's unreasonable.

Originally Posted by CivilWars

I present you with this:

United States map of 2010 NPMSRP Police Misconduct Map by County - TargetMap

and this:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/...ymaprb1024.png

and allow you to draw your own conclusions.

I'll go ahead and toss my comments in here since I already gave them to you in chat (for everyone who's paying attention at home)

ok so I see where you're going with the first link of stat by county and then attempting to overlay that with the typical red\blue political indicator. However that's, while entertaining in a out context way, not going to go very far due to a complete lack of context (such as population density for starters)

yet if you look at this map, the political map is basicallya non-starter United States map of 2010 NPMSRP Police Misconduct Rate by State - TargetMap

You're welcome buddy,

Your's truly,
The Despoiler of jovially bad statistical shenanigans!
Fear my acute sense of "details matters!!!!"
Roar

I grew up in a small town in North Texas. We had about four cops. They regularly abused their authority and generally were asshats. This is not a new thing or even a growing thing. But technology makes it easier to document. If Google Glass takes off, even more documentation will happen. And that's a good thing. Even one incident is one too many. The thing that is growing is sanctioned violations. Situations where the cops are following orders and procedures that violate our rights; most of it done in the name of safety. They never bothered to ask me but I'll risk drunk drivers, drug smugglers, illegal immigrants, and terrorists to keep my rights.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Alundil

I'll go ahead and toss my comments in here since I already gave them to you in chat (for everyone who's paying attention at home)



You're welcome buddy,

Your's truly,
The Despoiler of jovially bad statistical shenanigans!
Fear my acute sense of "details matters!!!!"
Roar

You're dead to me.

Originally Posted by CivilWars

I present you with this:

United States map of 2010 NPMSRP Police Misconduct Map by County - TargetMap

and this:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/...ymaprb1024.png

and allow you to draw your own conclusions.

See now this is what i'm looking for, thanks Civil.

Further, 2010 Annual Report | PoliceMisconduct.net. If you skim more than halfway down there's a comparison chart of reported misconduct and as you can see in the majority of states reported misconduct has grown from 2009 to 2010. So in fact, you all appear to be correct. However, I still firmly believe misconduct has always been an issue. Again if anything it comes to light more now and there may be other reason besides just technology. It could also be that society is more receptive to complaints than they were before.

And i'm still not giving up on that fact the guy was being a punk.

The Police exceeding constitutional authority has been an issue since the country was founded. Most of the 'lines' which are being discussed here have only been fairly recently implemented by the courts. Before 1961 there was no prohibition on using illegally obtained evidence in a criminal case (Mapp v. Ohio 1961), Miranda warnings have been required since 1963, and accused have only had a right counsel since 1963. Furthermore, stop and search has only been allowed formally since 1968 with 'probable cause'.

The law on check-points is all over the map - literally. The majority of states (38), and the feds, have either explicitly authorized checkpoints or have had their highest courts rule them to be constitutional under both their state constitution or the US Constitution. The 12 who prohibit checkpoints are comprised of both traditionally Red (Alaska, Idaho, Iowa, Montana, Texas, Wyoming) and Blue states (Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington, Wisconsin).

One of the primary issues I have with this topic is exemplified by its title: "Post-Constitutional" really? The Constitution is not a static document, it has been interpreted over the years and those interpretations have helped build our country. Many of the 'rights' people scream about in here wouldn't exist without multiple evolutionary interpretations of the Constitution based on changing facts, and many things we take for granted every single day wouldn't be legal or protected without those interpretations. You may disagree with a ruling on what in fact passes constitutional muster - but to claim that we are in a post-constitutional America is unnecessarily inflammatory.