Thread: Business Innovation vs Social Convention

Originally Posted by CivilWars

I did start reading it, but am now on a conference call, so will finish later.

Well, of course work comes first. The link is the first in a series of blog posts. It took me a while before I found the time to read it all (mostly last night on my iPad). Even though it was long, I judged it worthy.

I started this thread partly as a distraction from so many [ "That guy's an IDIOT", "No, YOU'RE an idiot!" ] threads, and was hoping the discussion could revolve a little more around the ideas in the link and a little less around how much each of us (including me) thinks the rest of us are morons.

Lastly, though I'm absolutely sure that it's not the norm, I do know of specific examples from personal experience of wait-staff that earn the pittance you mention.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by Warprosper

Genius....


"To sum up: I’m proposing that tipping allows us to assign women a role where any sexuality they display can be attributed not to their desires but instead to their greed for money. In doing so, we both dehumanize and desexualize women, in large numbers. We do this to shield ourselves from the cultural memory of a time not too long ago, when virile women called the shots and nobody was too concerned if your wife was getting around. (Because she was.) (Maybe she still is.)"

Yeah, I liked a lot of his thoughts on the matter.

What I liked more was that his entire foray into the social/sexual politics was a consequence of him trying to solve a business issue. The feedback and pushback he got from his policies prompted further thought. That's not to say that he's not already versed in the language of gender issues (he obviously is), but rather that some of what we hear from pin-head academics and feminists isn't a bad explanation for the reactions he got to his business policy.

I also disagreed with some of his thoughts, and I think he missed the point a few times. But he's prompting a thoughtful approach, and that's valuable either way.


Æ

Originally Posted by AetheLove

Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview | Jay Porter

This guy's trying to run a business and in furtherance of that goal is trying to look at the world through different eyes.

Challenging social convention has consequences.


Æ

Very interesting. I waited tables for two summers as a kid, and I completely agree that for a certain segment of the restaurant public, eating at a restaurant is all about exercising power.

Originally Posted by dex71

I caddied for ~3 years (before I was 16 and could get a legal job). If someone made a move towards my tips (as in pooling them), their first expense would be removal of my foot from their ass. I worked hard, and was a damn good caddie. I earned every tip I got, and wouldn't have shared them with anyone.


I don't like the tipless idea.

As a customer, I like to tip. I know that the server is making low wages (and before Trigger can bestow the perfection of Eurotopia on us, here in Minnesota, servers get minimum wage), so I know a good tip is appreciated. I also know that if it is a place I frequent, I'll get even better service next time. Plus, it just makes me, the customer, feel good.

The article....or blog (Eastern or European?)...sort of glossed over a study that told them that better service was not gained by better tips. I would like to hear a lot more about that study before I beliueve a word of it. I'd like to know if it took repeat visits into account. Either way, it doesn't matter if my water gets to me an average of 4 seconds faster with a certain tip level. It's about making me, the customer, feel as though I am being well served.

Yeah, that's definitely part of it - although I have to say that it was a little uncomfortable for me to admit to myself that I was jealous of my own part in the power dynamic. Tipping is partly about power.

Maybe it can't work for caddies. Maybe tipping is a more effective market mechanism there, and/or the downsides don't apply as much.

Also in the articles is mentioned that they had another restaurant at which the tipless thing didn't work. That one had a larger bar and significant business there. The service charge approach didn't work (partly because it made the drinks look more expensive, even though they weren't). I can't tell if they failed there because they couldn't break the social expectation or if a tip system is more efficient in that environment.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by dex71

I caddied for ~3 years (before I was 16 and could get a legal job). If someone made a move towards my tips (as in pooling them), their first expense would be removal of my foot from their ass. I worked hard, and was a damn good caddie. I earned every tip I got, and wouldn't have shared them with anyone.


I don't like the tipless idea.

As a customer, I like to tip. I know that the server is making low wages (and before Trigger can bestow the perfection of Eurotopia on us, here in Minnesota, servers get minimum wage), so I know a good tip is appreciated. I also know that if it is a place I frequent, I'll get even better service next time. Plus, it just makes me, the customer, feel good.

The article....or blog (Eastern or European?)...sort of glossed over a study that told them that better service was not gained by better tips. I would like to hear a lot more about that study before I beliueve a word of it. I'd like to know if it took repeat visits into account. Either way, it doesn't matter if my water gets to me an average of 4 seconds faster with a certain tip level. It's about making me, the customer, feel as though I am being well served.

I thought there was a link to the study in one of the blog posts, but I read those posts on my phone so I'm not 100%. That being said, It's hard for me to argue with the basic premise of tips not really affecting service. As the blogger stated, most of the good waitstaff did not even look at tips until the end of the night, and if you follow that train of logic it means that in many cases (such as those where the table left the tip in cash), the server would have no idea who left a large tip and who did not.

~Morningfrost