Thread: Are we the baddies?

Originally Posted by AetheLove

Well, I was responding to DG too - but quoting you was the better lead-in.

I also remembered another quote from another great American.

"What's the use you learning to do right, when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?"

-- Huck Finn


Æ

And from what perspective is it right and wrong? I hate vague quotes because people throw them out there as support for an argument when it lacks any real logical conclusion.

Some of you seem to be confused with the act of being released with being innocent. We in fact had photos of some of those released people fighting for that side. Thats not innocent. Backing the people that do the damage while not wielding the weapon doesn't release someone from guilt. I know it popular to say there is a very small portion of islam committing the act but there is a much larger portion that supports the act.

Originally Posted by SmokenScion

Fuck innocent people? Or Fuck people who may or may not look like terrorists?

Thats a stupid question. Remarkably stupid. We took a select group of people to gitmo not an entire race.

Originally Posted by AetheLove

Damnit to hell. I was already mad/sad, and now it's worse. There's a lotta hate in this world.

Still - better to know than not.

Also: DG, I don't think we're the baddies. But I think a few of us are, and it's important to ask the question before we're too far down the path of the answer we don't want.

Cheers (we'll need it),


AetheLove

PC has added so many lanes to that path most people cant see down it much less the end of it. I agree the question should be asked but the ends do justify the means at this time. Could be we haven't pushed hard enough yet. So no we aren't the baddies. If we were we would be the ones cutting heads off and killing kid looking for a fight. Our actions are responses to a situation not the leading act.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

And from what perspective is it right and wrong? I hate vague quotes because people throw them out there as support for an argument when it lacks any real logical conclusion.

It's not a vague quote. FFS. Didn't you read "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" in school?

"What's the use you learning to do right, when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?" -- Huck

Huck isn't seeing the justice (injustice) of his time and place from the outside. He's not us, looking back, feeling comfortable condemning the wrongs of the antebellum South.

He's living it. He's a kid growing up in it. He's confronted by the inconsistency of it.

His father's the town drunk, and discourages him from getting any education. He becomes friends with a slave. He's a clever kid, and thoughtful, but lots of things in his world keep not making very much sense. There's people trying to tell him what's right. There's people trying to tell him what's wrong. There's people trying to teach him religion. Most of them aren't doing a very good job.

He's an adolescent, and rebellious, but he's good hearted and he really is trying. But a lot of the shit that goes on just doesn't make any sense. And at one point, exasperated, he asks:

"What's the use you learning to do right, when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?"

There's a hard path, and an easy path, but they both lead to the same place.

... and his problem is - it seems to make no sense at all. But the problem isn't that he doesn't know right from wrong. The problem is that the results he sees don't match up.

And the point is: if you want people to pay any attention at all to right and wrong, you'd better make goddamned sure that the wages are different.

Every innocent person who dies from an American bullet or an American bomb, or at the hands of black site operatives, undoes the justice of 1000 bad people who got what was coming to them. The lesson for every innocent person still alive is: the people who preach justice and democracy and christianity and government by law are full of shit and don't give a flying fuck about you.

Reading this forum might not change their minds, either.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Originally Posted by AetheLove

It's not a vague quote. FFS. Didn't you read "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" in school?

"What's the use you learning to do right, when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?" -- Huck

Huck isn't seeing the justice (injustice) of his time and place from the outside. He's not us, looking back, feeling comfortable condemning the wrongs of the antebellum South.

He's living it. He's a kid growing up in it. He's confronted by the inconsistency of it.

His father's the town drunk, and discourages him from getting any education. He becomes friends with a slave. He's a clever kid, and thoughtful, but lots of things in his world keep not making very much sense. There's people trying to tell him what's right. There's people trying to tell him what's wrong. There's people trying to teach him religion. Most of them aren't doing a very good job.

He's an adolescent, and rebellious, but he's good hearted and he really is trying. But a lot of the shit that goes on just doesn't make any sense. And at one point, exasperated, he asks:

"What's the use you learning to do right, when it's troublesome to do right and ain't no trouble to do wrong, and the wages is just the same?"

There's a hard path, and an easy path, but they both lead to the same place.

... and his problem is - it seems to make no sense at all. But the problem isn't that he doesn't know right from wrong. The problem is that the results he sees don't match up.

And the point is: if you want people to pay any attention at all to right and wrong, you'd better make goddamned sure that the wages are different.

Every innocent person who dies from an American bullet or an American bomb, or at the hands of black site operatives, undoes the justice of 1000 bad people who got what was coming to them. The lesson for every innocent person still alive is: the people who preach justice and democracy and christianity and government by law are full of shit and don't give a flying fuck about you.

Reading this forum might not change their minds, either.

Cheers,


AetheLove

No its a vague quote and yes years ago i read it. So there's an easy path and a hard path. So what about torture is easy as i am assuming thats what you're referring to as the easy path? Just because you dont see the results doesn't mean there haven't been any.

That last part is a bit high and mighty if not completely absurd. Going by your statement everyone on the planet should be upset with us. After all we have waged war in many countries at this point and every single time civilians and innocents die. Its a regrettable side effect of war but at the end of the day once again the ends justifies the means. Plus most people already know governments are full of shit. They dont place their faith in their governments they place it in their troops.

I know now it more popular to say torture doesn't work but it really does. We as people have always phased out things that dont work or replace it with things that work better but here we are thousands of years later and its still here and the only thing thats changed in the tools of the trade. Odds are the survivability of it has increased as well. That doesn't mean everyone has to enjoy the idea but denying it doesn't make it any less true.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

No its a vague quote and yes years ago i read it. So there's an easy path and a hard path. So what about torture is easy as i am assuming thats what you're referring to as the easy path?

No. That's not what I mean by the easy path. Not even close.

I'm not going to refute any of the things you say. Even this:

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

[...] the ends justifies the means.

... can just go ahead and stand (or fall) on its own.

The John Adams quote has everything in it. The language is a bit old fashioned, but it's recognizable English and anyone who cares can parse it and find out what it says.

I really wish I was capable, but there's no way I'll ever be able to say it better than Mr. Adams.

Cheers,


AetheLove

Fair enough but im more of General Mattis frame of mind. “We’ve backed off in good faith to try and give you a chance to straighten this problem out. But I am going to beg with you for a minute. I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.”