Thread: Ok, i kept quiet but enough is enough.

Originally Posted by AetheLove

I get all that. So don't build next to a lake, or don't build in Florida. You make it sound like the universe forces hotels to be next to lakes. Disney terra-forms everything. They don't build small-scale. They sculpt the landscape to fit their eco-architect design.

I don't think that Disney willfully caused a death. I think they grossly miscalculated some odds.




Completely true. But if that beach had been fenced off and the family had cut a hole in the fence, how do you think that would have affected the civil suit?




The sign said "No Swimming". Was anyone swimming?




Well, bully for you.

In my world - among my fellow hikers - "on the trail" is where you are when you're out in the wilderness. Sometimes we are on an actual trail. Sometimes we are bushwhacking. Sometimes we're in places that require you to be on the marked trail - for example, some high-altitude alpine environments.

Sometimes we're in a canoe or a kayak. When we get back, and someone asks where we were, sometimes the answer is "on the trail." Sometimes the answer is "canoeing". Never is the answer "on a lake", even though that is a much better literal description.

That said, I know that my world isn't the whole world. I have room in my brain for the possibility that other people will use other phrases to describe similar things.




I haven't lived all over the country. I think I've only lived in 9 states. But I have been a lifeguard. At the time, if a place was open for the season but didn't have a lifeguard that day or that afternoon (for whatever reason), they might post a sign that said "No Swimming - Lifeguard Not On Duty", or some other variation. For a place that had decided not to open for public swimming that year (for example, at a private lake that adjoined a golf club), they might post a sign that said:

No Swimming

I'm sure it's different in different places.


Æ

They built the lake when they built the park. It took like 2 or 3 years to escavate it. They chose florida because it has always been a tourist spot. The addition of the park placed oralndo at the top of the list for tourist destinations. I agree disney did not willfully cause a death but i doubt they grossly miscalculated the odds. There's a good reason people aren't hurt everyday out there by wildlife.

You all keep falling back on the lawsuit but are falling to understand there is a MASSIVE difference between being attacked by a wild animal on your property and being attacked by their pet dog. If you were in my yard and got bit by a snake you have no suit. Disney is in the same situation legally. The only hope they could have for a civil case is people sympathizing with them. However the trial would be here in florida. The jury would be filled with people that live in florida. With people that know gators are in the waters and lets not forget these are the same people that let zimmerman and anthony off because there simply wasn't enough facts to convict.

In kneed deep water the 2 year old was probably swimming but you're also making an argument that wouldn't hold up in court.

Well bully for you as well.

I've lived in 26 different states. I've also been a life guard. I've also been on many military installations where signage is used for every damn thing. What you are talking about is a plce where swimming is actually allowed but suspended for the moment. Disneys seven seas lagoon is no swimming, 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Its open every day and swimming has never been allowed. Big difference. Legally disney did everything it had to do to cover itself. They're very good at that so i wouldn't go counting on any lawsuit getting anywhere.

Originally Posted by AetheLove

You seem unwilling to grant that people who come from different places might interpret signs differently, and be justified (if mistaken) in doing so.

That's loony.

In your lifeguarding experience, you saw one set of things. I'm not claiming you're wrong. I'm claiming that your experience isn't universal, or the limit of what reasonable people might think.

Insisting that it's all one way because that's how you saw it is also loony.

It doesn't matter what everyone in Florida knows. Disney markets to people from all over the US, and all over the world. They have to design with that in mind.

I'm not "falling back on a lawsuit" (especially because, for all I know, one doesn't exist yet). I'm suggesting that issues of liability are in play; and further, if everyone in Florida KNOWS that lakes have gators, then Disney might be in an even more uncomfortable position.

I don't even know what the point is here.

I said this:






... and I'm sticking with that.


Æ

You can put a line through whatever you want. Play your passive aggressive bullshit game. If you think what i said in here is harsh be glad we've never talked face to face because i play nice in here. If you think reading a sign saying no swimming and actually not swimming is expecting to much then be glad i play nice in here.

A "No Swimming" sign is very different than a "Beware of Alligators" sign. And yes, probably not making a fun and inviting man-made beach with umbrellas and chairs for relaxing would also stop the illusion that these shores are safe. And btw I would assume a small child even standing close to the edge of that water would invite issues at some point to a hungry large male alligator. I mean if they climb fences why wouldn't they lurch out of the water to grab a small child? Again, Disney has a responsibility to it's guests to keep them safe with sufficient warning signs.

Nobody assumes there are dangerous alligators in the water unless you're from Florida. Period. When most of your guests are probably not from Florida and you (Disney staff) daily see them wading around the water or even just standing close to the water (where a gator could potentially still grab a child) then yes...you're responsible. You should make better signage better fences or just close the dang beach. You've opened the door to this threat and let people splash around in it. If there are no signs there are gators in there, then gators aren't there (again...I am talking as someone NOT familiar with Florida). But Disney KNEW they were in there is the point, the staff saw them all the time and guests have made reports about seeing them. Yet no proper signs were in place.

No swimming can't be the only sign, especially when there is potential of a 4-5' long male alligator hungry around night time in the area. This was a disaster waiting to happen, and yeah they've been lucky up until now. How all those Disney staffers could let people stand close to or dip their toes in a body of water they themselves know to have gators is craziness to me.

Originally Posted by MeenaSan

A "No Swimming" sign is very different than a "Beware of Alligators" sign. And yes, probably not making a fun and inviting man-made beach with umbrellas and chairs for relaxing would also stop the illusion that these shores are safe. And btw I would assume a small child even standing close to the edge of that water would invite issues at some point to a hungry large male alligator. I mean if they climb fences why wouldn't they lurch out of the water to grab a small child? Again, Disney has a responsibility to it's guests to keep them safe with sufficient warning signs.

Nobody assumes there are dangerous alligators in the water unless you're from Florida. Period. When most of your guests are probably not from Florida and you (Disney staff) daily see them wading around the water or even just standing close to the water (where a gator could potentially still grab a child) then yes...you're responsible. You should make better signage better fences or just close the dang beach. You've opened the door to this threat and let people splash around in it. If there are no signs there are gators in there, then gators aren't there (again...I am talking as someone NOT familiar with Florida). But Disney KNEW they were in there is the point, the staff saw them all the time and guests have made reports about seeing them. Yet no proper signs were in place.

No swimming can't be the only sign, especially when there is potential of a 4-5' long male alligator hungry around night time in the area. This was a disaster waiting to happen, and yeah they've been lucky up until now. How all those Disney staffers could let people stand close to or dip their toes in a body of water they themselves know to have gators is craziness to me.

Just seeing the water is enough to keep most people out. We'll just say its not clear.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

You can put a line through whatever you want. Play your passive aggressive bullshit game. If you think what i said in here is harsh be glad we've never talked face to face because i play nice in here. If you think reading a sign saying no swimming and actually not swimming is expecting to much then be glad i play nice in here.

Whoa.

I posted, went to do something else, and then thought "there's no point to this." I edited my post to reflect that. I used the [strike] tag because I thought that best represented the thought process, and because there was no reason to simply delete what I previously wrote.

If calling it "passive aggressive bullshit" is what helps you keep your psyche intact, then that's fine with me.

I'm not worried about how nice you choose to play. It sounds like you think you're doing us all a favour by being nicer in here, so, uh, thanks? I guess?

I don't think one way or the other about how harsh you are. Harsh doesn't affect the quality of an argument. I thought 'fucktard' was an error of judgement, not that it was too mean. I'm not offended by the word. I've used the word 'fucktard' myself.

I'm thinking about using it again.

That post is what it looks like when someone doesn't want to argue with intransigence. There's nothing to win, it wasn't fun, and all the rhetorically interesting jokes are at the expense of a dead kid.


Æ

On a much more serious note....more information is coming to light as the investigation continues. It looks like Disney will be adding gator warning signs to all its locations. Early interviews with staff and guests say that Disney staff regularly see not only gators nearby but guests playing in the water. Some reports that Disney provided some with buckets and shovels to play in the sand. I have a friend that posted a friends pic on FB today of them at that beach about an hour before this attack happened, they were in the water with their toddler. This parent and 2 year old weren't the only ones in the water! Disney staff were present. It turns out it was during a movie on the beach night.

So we went from first impressions that this was some Joe Schmo jerking around watching fireworks while his kid was breaking the rules and playing in the water. As more details come forward this is looking more and more like a blatant disregard for safety by Disney and that the family actually had a reasonable assurance that the situation was dangerous. If its a Disney sanctioned event and staff are on hand and people are wading without warning and staff aren't stopping them. This will be a VERY large settlement on the part of Disney.




Disney alligator attack: Resort to add warning signs, source says - CNN.com