God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

**WickedTribe** · 08-09-10, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Consultant

The selectively authentic theology here is making my head spin. Before the fall of man, as described in Genesis, this vision that some have described of what life would be like if God were omnibenevolant was the case. I understand that if you don't believe the Bible that all of my post here is meaningless, but there is an explanation for the pain of childbirth, the toil of hunger and producing the means of survival for an...original sin.

You don't have to believe it, but it is explained. Man (Adam and Eve) wanted to be like God and have the knowledge of good and evil so they ate the fruit that the serpent convinced them to eat...and the rest is history.

I repeat, however, if you don't believe the bible, then this all becomes more complicated.

Why did God create the Snake? Or the tree? or Evil? If God made the first two to test Man in order to select those with bad traits, why create those traits? Why would he need to test us, if he's omniscient?

**deathgodusmc** · 08-09-10, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

Why did God create the Snake? Or the tree? or Evil? If God made the first two to test Man in order to select those with bad traits, why create those traits? Why would he need to test us, if he's omniscient?

blasphemer

**WickedTribe** · 08-09-10, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

blasphemer

Only punishment by fire will do!

**Knee of Justice** · 08-09-10, 06:30 PM

Allright, you guys are getting into a huge argument that nobody has really ever settled, which is why I personally am agnostic. Some believe that if a God controls everything, and knows the future, then free will is impossible. I personally don't, but we spent a large amount of time covering this in my religion class. I've put the entire month's lesson into two charts. Anyone who believes that a Christian God and free will both exist, please try and prove me wrong. I'd personally like to see what arguments can be thought of. Also, please no "God exists outside of time" argument: that's illogical.

please click the charts to enlarge!

also, to clarify, I believe we DO have free will. I'm personally Agnostic, meaning I think it's impossible to figure religion out, so I pretty much avoid it.

**Imisnew2** · 08-09-10, 06:40 PM

There's a slight flaw in the logic of the second chart.

God knows the future.
God does not control the future.
We control the future.
Think of it like parallel universes.

God knows every future that is created based on which choices we make. God then gives us guidance to make the right choice ( free will , with advice ) to bring us down the path that will benefit God's work.

**WickedTribe** · 08-09-10, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Imisnew2

There's a slight flaw in the logic of the second chart.

God knows the future.
God does not control the future.
We control the future.
Think of it like parallel universes.

God knows every future that is created based on which choices we make. God then gives us guidance to make the right choice ( free will , with advice ) to bring us down the path that will benefit God's work.

That doesn't really work. If god doesn't know what choices you're going to make, then he's not omniscient. It really can't be both ways.

**Imisnew2** · 08-09-10, 07:07 PM

You could take it that way, however, you could also say he knows which choice you're going to make.

**WickedTribe** · 08-09-10, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Imisnew2

You could take it that way, however, you could also say he knows which choice you're going to make.

Please explain the difference.

**Sosiego** · 08-10-10, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Knee of Justice

Allright, you guys are getting into a huge argument that nobody has really ever settled, which is why I personally am agnostic. Some believe that if a God controls everything, and knows the future, then free will is impossible. I personally don't, but we spent a large amount of time covering this in my religion class. I've put the entire month's lesson into two charts. Anyone who believes that a Christian God and free will both exist, please try and prove me wrong. I'd personally like to see what arguments can be thought of. Also, please no "God exists outside of time" argument: that's illogical.

What type of free will/agency are we talking about? Are we talking about libertarian free will? Free agency as seen in compatibilism? What you've hit on is not simply a discussion that exists outside of Christian theism. Debates concerning this within Christian circles have been going on for a long time.

I would agree that the "God exists out of time" argument doesn't do anything to advance the discussion of free will/agency. However, that's usually an argument thrown out to defend that man's free will (in the libertarian sense) isn't at odds with God being omniscient/having exhaustive foreknowledge. However, since I don't think libertarian free will is possible, both in regards to God's foreknowledge and other reasons as well, I don't have to resort to that argument.

Albeit, though, this is a rather difficult, complicated subject. I have a decent grasp on the Christian compatibilism I hold to but it's still something I wrestle with given my beliefs on the subject growing up.