God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

**DJ Ms. White** · 08-10-10, 12:29 PM

So in other words, our future is predetermined, and we have no free will after all.

**Sosiego** · 08-10-10, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. White

So in other words, our future is predetermined, and we have no free will after all.

Again, as I asked Knee, what type of free will/agency are we talking about?

It's not like this dilemma is exclusive to theistic belief in an omniscient God, especially if you hold to libertarian belief concerning the agency/will of man (non-theistically speaking). Unless you're a presentist, you're going to run into problems with trying to argue that the future exists/is real yet we still have free will in the libertarian sense.

**Knee of Justice** · 08-10-10, 03:51 PM

dunno what you really mean by that, I'm just presenting the argument that some have.

**Sosiego** · 08-10-10, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Knee of Justice

dunno what you really mean by that, I'm just presenting the argument that some have.

The argument you presented, which includes your statement of "By this logic, free will and the christian God can not both exist," rests upon a particular type of free will. That is, is rests upon libertarian free will. Libertarian free will, in a nutshell, is the ability to do other than what we decide to do in any given circumstance. That is, the choices we have made in the past could have been otherwise, given all things within the individual circumstance that the choice was made within.

However, libertarian free will is not the only "type" of free will. There is also compatibilistic free agency. That is, we are free to make choices based on what we desire the most in any given circumstance and we not only will not, but cannot, make a choice outside of what we want to do the most. With this type of free agency, though what we are doing is known/decreed by God, we are still making a free choice because we are still doing what we want to do the most. Hence, the agency of man and God's decree/foreknowledge are compatible.

**Knee of Justice** · 08-10-10, 07:41 PM

well, either way, it's impossible to prove this right OR wrong.

**WickedTribe** · 08-10-10, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Consultant

God does know the choices we will make. We have free will, he just knows the outcome of our will being acted out.

Then we don't have a choice. If God knows that we'll choose A, then we can't choose B. If we choose B, then God wasn't Omniscient.

**~~hawgballs~~** · 08-10-10, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

Then we don't have a choice. If God knows that we'll choose A, then we can't choose B. If we choose B, then God wasn't Omniscient.

Blasphemy!!!!!!

**WickedTribe** · 08-10-10, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sosiego

The argument you presented, which includes your statement of "By this logic, free will and the christian God can not both exist," rests upon a particular type of free will. That is, is rests upon libertarian free will. Libertarian free will, in a nutshell, is the ability to do other than what we decide to do in any given circumstance. That is, the choices we have made in the past could have been otherwise, given all things within the individual circumstance that the choice was made within.

However, libertarian free will is not the only "type" of free will. There is also compatibilistic free agency. That is, we are free to make choices based on what we desire the most in any given circumstance and we not only will not, but cannot, make a choice outside of what we want to do the most. With this type of free agency, though what we are doing is known/decreed by God, we are still making a free choice because we are still doing what we want to do the most. Hence, the agency of man and God's decree/foreknowledge are compatible.

That's silly. That's not free will, especially if you believe that God designed you and your desires. You can call it whatever you like, but it doesn't change the fact that an omniscient god is only compatible with a predestined universe.

**WickedTribe** · 08-10-10, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Knee of Justice

well, either way, it's impossible to prove this right OR wrong.

I disagree. The supernatural may be outside of the bounds of scientific disproof, but it's certainly not outside the bounds of logical fallacy. You can't have an omniscient god unless you have a predetermined universe. You can play around with words and redefine "free will" like in Sosiego's argument, but that's just sidestepping the point.

**Walkerxes** · 08-10-10, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

I disagree. The supernatural may be outside of the bounds of scientific disproof, but it's certainly not outside the bounds of logical fallacy. You can't have an omniscient god unless you have a predetermined universe. You can play around with words and redefine "free will" like in Sosiego's argument, but that's just sidestepping the point.

We do have both. One day our race will die, it's simply going to happen. Maybe in 2012, maybe hundreds of thousands of years from now.. by some means, we will cease. The sun will get us, the earth will get us, a meteor will get us.. our own stupidity might even get us. Who knows. But it's gonna happen.. predestined. But what we do in the meantimes is entirely up to us. free will.

That only works, tho, if you see god as a metaphor. Safe to say that most Christians do not see him thus.