Thread: God doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

I'd argue that lack of choice is a lack of choice. "Free Will" is a poorly defined term, so you can define it how you like, but you can't redefine the word "choice" to mean "no choice." If you have no ability to choose between two options, then you don't have a choice.

Choice is just a noun that means the act or power of choosing. Though, I think your equivocating on its usage in this dialogue.

You do have the ability to choose between two options. If I present two options before you, you will choose one based on what you desire most. However, what I am saying is that you will never, ever, choose contrary to what you desire the most. Hence, what you chose in the past could not have been otherwise. Regardless, you still have the ability to make a choice. Or are you saying it's not a real choice if you don't have the choice to choose other than what you are going to actually choose?

I'm trying my best to put this as simply as possible. So, let's say that in one minute you will put a stick of Juicy Fruit bubblegum in your mouth. This is what will actually happen. In 50 seconds, however, you will have the option of either putting a stick of Juicy Fruit bubblegum in your mouth or putting a stick of Extra spearmint bubblegum in your mouth. You like Juicy Fruit way better so, in 55 seconds from now, you decide you want to chew a stick of Juicy Fruit bubblegum. At one minute from now, you put the stick of Juicy Fruit bubblegum in your mouth.

There was only one live option in this scenario given the presupposition that (1) the future is real and (2) the future is not subject to change (e.g. the 12 Monkeys scenario). The other option was never going to happen, in fact it couldn't happen given that the future is not subject to change (only one timeline exists). Regardless, you went and chose what was always going to happen.

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

Do I believe in a clockwork universe? I've never been presented with much evidence either way. Do I believe in free will? Same answer, I don't know.

It's kind of hard to believe in both (from a libertarian perspective) given that the Clockwork Universe Theory essentially entails a form of casual determinism.

Originally Posted by WickedTribe

I'm aware of the definition of "choice," and it involves an explicit or implicit ability to choose between multiple things. If there is only one option, then there is no choice. You're assuming a clockwork universe. Yes, if we live in a clockwork universe, then there can't be any choices. If we don't, then I can easily say, "I will flip this coin: Heads, I choose A, Tails, I choose B." If you don't live in a universe with randomness, then my desires have no effect on the outcome.

And you do choose between multiple things. Did you just disregard the scenario I laid out? You're right though, I deny that randomness exists. I also deny that chance and luck exist.

However, I do not deny second causes. Ends will not come about without means. That's a whole separate discussion (i. e. causality) though.

Also, you previously said you don't know if free will (libertarian based, I assume) exists. If that's so, then why are we having this discussion?

Originally Posted by Mr. White

Randomness not exist? Well all of Quantum Mechanics, QED, and QCD must be wrong then. You know, despite the shit ton of evidence in their favor. I'm sure that's right.

Not that type of randomness...

I suppose a better of getting at what I was saying is that I don't believe anything is purposeless.

Originally Posted by Mr. White

They're one and the same. Just because one takes place on size scale smaller than you can see doesn't mean they're different.

I'm not following what you're saying here.