Here is the harmless guy.

**HeavyG** · 10-30-10, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by ***COMMANDER***

I am talking tax breaks, not tax rebate checks as in stimulus, but it did help and work.

Same thing. More money for people to spend on their high interest rates, late fees, and higher gas prices, which end up right back in the middle east.

Again, I am not exactly for higher taxes, but I am not for tax breaks either. But with all of the failing businesses and the instability of our economy, I just don't know where the extra money to "bail out" these business is going to come from unless it is out of our pockets. I will pay a higher tax if I know it will be used for a good cause. But then again, I don't exactly have a say in it... I just pay it and pray that I don't lose MY job.

**HeavyG** · 10-30-10, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by hawgballs

Historically speaking, we are paying the least amount of taxes since 1930's...... Nobody is getting "taxed the shit out of" anything.

There are a lot more people here than in the 1930s. A lot of them are illegals. Not to mention, our jobs are getting sucked up by other countries at an alarming rate. We didn't have that problem in the 1930s. I am not trying to compare the depression in the 1930s to our current recession, but at least WWII brought jobs and boosted our economy into the largest bang in the history of our country, but the current war just isn't doing it.

**Arreo** · 10-30-10, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by HeavyG

A lot of them are illegals.

About 11 million or ~3.5%of the total US population. It is up to each of us to decide if that is 'a lot' or not.

EDIT; I'm not trying to attack or diminish your point in any way, I just like putting numbers into debates so people aren't arguing back and forth over what words say.

**Red_Lizard2** · 10-30-10, 05:01 PM

I actually did a research paper on Illegals and their effect on the economy. Basically if you graduated high school, they have barely (I think it was like .1%) effect on your wages, and almost no effect on your job. Generally the people competing for jobs with illegal immigrants are high school dropouts.

**HeavyG** · 10-30-10, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Arreo

About 11 million or ~3.5%of the total US population. It is up to each of us to decide if that is 'a lot' or not.

EDIT; I'm not trying to attack or diminish your point in any way, I just like putting numbers into debates so people aren't arguing back and forth over what words say.

And how many of our public services go to service illegals? Hell, even if just rounding them up and deporting them. Even if we spent just $1 on services for illegals, that would be money better spent "funding the war" or anything else, really. The real answer is that we are spending a lot more on servicing the illegals. This would take that amount of spending into the billions.

I am not focusing on the illegals. The same could be said for those that evade taxes or report less and this pay less. These people certainly take advantage of services provided by tax dollars. I am talking about Health Care and other civil services that they "mooch" off of. I understand that those who make less money pay less and those that are unemployed don't pay anything... but there are people out there that make just as much money as me and pay far less. When THEY take advantage of these services, it is almost like stealing.

**HeavyG** · 10-30-10, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Red_Lizard2

I actually did a research paper on Illegals and their effect on the economy. Basically if you graduated high school, they have barely (I think it was like .1%) effect on your wages, and almost no effect on your job. Generally the people competing for jobs with illegal immigrants are high school dropouts.

Trust me, I am not worried about an illegal immigrant taking my job anywhere in my lifetime. Unless this illegal goes to college, gets 10 years of work experience, and... is no longer illegal, in which would counter this whole argument. I am more concerned on how much money the U.S. spends on services for Illegals. I don't have any hard figures, but simple common sense and math in your head should come up with a really large number.

Again, this isn't a debate on illegals. There are enough issues there... enough said. I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of reasons we are paying less taxes now than we were in the 1930s.

**Arreo** · 10-30-10, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by HeavyG

And how many of our public services go to service illegals? Hell, even if just rounding them up and deporting them. Even if we spent just $1 on services for illegals, that would be money better spent "funding the war" or anything else, really. The real answer is that we are spending a lot more on servicing the illegals. This would take that amount of spending into the billions.

Illegals are less likely to default on loans, less likely to be incarcerated, amount to about 2% of health-care spending, and overall boost the GDP by 1%.

The major drain in the system is in Education costs, which amount to about $11 billion a year, which is really a drop in the bucket when you compare it to the $976 billion that we spend on K12 education every year.

So how are they draining our economy in any serious way?

(perhaps we should split this off into another thread on the Impacts of Illegal Immigration)

**Red_Lizard2** · 10-30-10, 05:25 PM

On tax cuts "stimulating" the economy, it is similar to tax rebates in its all dependent on other factors. An interesting thing if you look at the Great Depression, consumers lost confidence in the markets and people stopped buying products (and increasingly high unemployment). I could give you 1,000 dollars, but if you don't trust the markets or your job security, you are more likely to save it then use it. And of course, as Heavy points out, these days we have so much debt, it is likely going to be used to pay down that debt, then buy new things or increase your personal debt.

**HeavyG** · 10-30-10, 05:32 PM

Just because they are "less" when compared to the overall U.S. population, does not mean that the amount of money we spend on illegals results in the billions. Health care spending in the U.S. was $2.5 Trillion. Yes, Trillion. Which would make health care spending on illegals a mere $50 million. Just on health care.

Again, when you look at it compared to the entire U.S. population, it is just a small fragment.

Also, I won't post my opinions on illegals getting loans and mortgages and their impact on the GDP in this topic. I just wanted to state the impact on wasteful government spending when speaking about changes in our tax policies. A lot of our money goes to pay for those that are simply breaking the law, and I don't support that at all. I will pay to help the unemployed and disabled... but paying for people to be allowed to continue to tax dodge and break laws. Come on... really? If you support that, then you should be deported...

**deathgodusmc** · 10-30-10, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Red_Lizard2

I actually did a research paper on Illegals and their effect on the economy. Basically if you graduated high school, they have barely (I think it was like .1%) effect on your wages, and almost no effect on your job. Generally the people competing for jobs with illegal immigrants are high school dropouts.

Well i sure didnt drop out of high school and they effect my job. They construction industry isnt run on high school drop outs and its one of the main places illegals work. Not to mention that the construction industry is a mutli billion dollar section of employment. I have to disagree with your opinion on this one. I would agree that overall the effect is relitively small but when you take into account the actual fields they are working its much more dramatic of a number.