Evolution

**AzH** · 10-30-06, 07:11 AM

Alternative history has always been a fascination of mine. The questions of 'what would have happened if' have always been an inspiration to me.

What if Germany had pushed Operation Sea Lion (the invasion of Britain) rather than open the Eastern Front if a firm favourite, and I would be interested to know what you guys think would have happened. Bare in mind the following as we're starting from Summer 1940 and the Battle of Britain.

"The RAF has been decimated by the Luftwaffe and German paratroopers and marine forces are preparing the invasion of the U.K. The Third Reich maintains an uneasy non-aggression pact with the Soviets. Pearl Harbour is stil to come and The United States has yet to come into the war. They are in no position to help with the defence of the United Kingdom. Britain looks set to fall..."

What happens next?

**Hfx-Rebel** · 10-30-06, 07:25 AM

If the Germans had concentrated on England, they would've held air superiority, and eventually landed & occupied the country that was chiefly fighting the war. Canada, or any other nation involved was in much of a position to change this turn of events, and theres a chance that the US would've stayed their isolationist coarse....at least, a little longer then thay actually did. In any case, the second World War would've lasted alot longer, and claimed alot more lives...not to mention that the Germans could've won and we'd all have an accenrt right now

**KoЯsakoff** · 10-30-06, 07:54 AM

Germany probably had overrun Great Brittain in a year orso. After that they may have focused on defending it and concentrating their attacks on the other parts of Europe. Then hold down for another of couple of years to fill in the ranks again, build new armor, retrain their Luftwaffe, prepare new strategies and march on to take Africa or Asia.

Just my thoughts.

**Mr Psi** · 10-30-06, 08:02 AM

Britain falls, and the German/Soviet alliance in powerful. When America gets involved a war of titanic proportions breaks out.

**Irish** · 10-30-06, 09:16 AM

I know very little about military issues so I'll just guess that;

Germany conquers Britain and then steam rolls most of Europe, save Russia. I don't know who would win in the long run, maybe Germany would make advances but then be forced to retreat again due to lack of manpower to protect and control most of Europe. After several years of trying to conquer Russia, suffering heavy loses, Germany gives up and another treaty is signed. Germany then just builds up it's defenses along the Russian border. America never gets involved in the war in Europe - with Britain falling America has not base to which it can bring in all it's troops and supplies.

After that, all 3 countries develop atomic weapons and the Cold War becomes a 3 way.

Is such a scenerio realistically possible or have I missed something fundamental?

**KoЯsakoff** · 10-30-06, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by IR15H

I know very little about military issues so I'll just guess that;

Germany conquers Britain and then steam rolls most of Europe, save Russia. I don't know who would win in the long run, maybe Germany would make advances but then be forced to retreat again due to lack of manpower to protect and control most of Europe. After several years of trying to conquer Russia, suffering heavy loses, Germany gives up and another treaty is signed. Germany then just builds up it's defenses along the Russian border. America never gets involved in the war in Europe - with Britain falling America has not base to which it can bring in all it's troops and supplies.

After that, all 3 countries develop atomic weapons and the Cold War becomes a 3 way.

Is such a scenerio realistically possible or have I missed something fundamental?

Could be very well possible. Only I wouldn't say that Russia and Germany would sign a treaty. My believe is that neither country will give up unless total annihilation occured. That being the "regular" army and political structure. Sure there will be rebels fighting a guerilla war fought after that, but it wouldn't last very long.
But if we keep to your scenario, America would have a base to deploy; Africa..

**AzH** · 10-30-06, 09:40 AM

All interesting theories. I would imagine, however, that the following would occur:

Germany would have invaded and subjugated Britain eventually and resistance would have been crushed. This would have secured western Europe against attack. Hitler knew, with the building of the Atlantic Wall, that the danger to western Europe came from an invasion from the sea by Allied forces based in Britain. It is difficult to determine what would have happened if Britain was not free. Would the Allies have been able to marshal forces for D-Day? Would the German military machine and industrial heart have suffered from a huge day and night bombing campaign? I think the answer to both is no. The United States, which was only dragged into the European conflict by a German declaration of war, lacked the capability to extend it's military power so far. The key for the United States entering Europe, was a safe and secure Britain. With that gone, so were American military plans for dealing with the Third Reich.

Of course, Pearl Harbour would have still gone ahead and the U.S. would have still gone to war with Japan, but I wonder what would have happened after this point. The U.S., unable and unwilling to attack Europe, would have been able to concentrate their full military might against Japan. However, British holdings in South East Asia would have been a major issue here. Would they be 'Free British'? Would they capitulate to German dominance? Would they be able to hold off the Japanese without the support of the homeland? My supposition is that Germany would make a pact with the Japanese to allow the Japanese to subsume British holdings in Asia into their Empire.

The battle for North Africa and the Middle East would have been a pale comparison to true events. With Britain defeated Nazi forces with their Italian allies would have quickly overran British positions. The 1943 Operation Torch which ultimately ended German plans for North Africa would not have gone ahead as Britain was used for a base for the Anglo-American invasion force. Nazi Germany would have held North Africa and more importantly the oil fields of the middle east.

Back to Europe and Hitler's non-aggression pact with Stalin would still not have held. There were many racial issues to consider. The German Aryan people believed themselves superior to the Slavic Russians and the conflict was more one of ideology than of nation. I would suggest a German invasion of Russia would still have gone ahead, but after Britain was under German military control. Perhaps a year or more after the real invasion. Hitler always intended to attack Russia and Stalin was always fearful that he would. Stalin believed that Hitler would have been unlikely to start a two front war. In our 'what if' scenario, this is not a concern for Hitler. The western war is won and with the exclusion of occupying forces, all of the Wermacht could have been aimed at Soviet Russia.

So far in our scenario things have been going well for Germany. Britain is occupied, North Africa is under control, the western borders of the Third Reich are secured by the size and scope of the Atlantic Ocean, there is no danger of U.S. intervention in Western Europe, and she stands poised to invade the Soviet Union.

To be continued.

**the Darkness** · 10-30-06, 10:00 AM

Just remember Operation Drumbeat. In Jan. of 1942 Germany attacked US shipping off the coast of North Carolina. This alone could have been enough to draw the US into a war in Europe even if the UK had fallen under the German boot heel.

**masked_marsoe** · 10-30-06, 10:22 AM

If Britain fell, the US would be highly reluctant to enter a war to save them. The isolationist faction in US politics was much stronger than the pro-war faction, and the cause for war was only brought up because of the attack of Pearl Harbour. The logistics of sending an invasion force across the Atlantic, and the risk this force would face against the Kriegsmarine would be prohibitive.

With all of Europe under his grasp, Hitler would probably turn to neutralise the USSR, obviously the threat posed by Stalin would be too much. Without a second or third front to drain resources, the Germans could have beaten the Russians at Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad. With these key positions held, the Germans would probably seek to replace the Russian government with a suitable puppet, and break up the USSR.

The Resistance movements would remain for several years, I would expect resistance in Britain, France, the Benelux, Denmark to last as long as the war against Russia. Resistance in Norway, Poland, Ukraine, and Russia would probably never end, though it would be limited.

Subsaharan Africa turns into a quagmire without the colonial governments (much more so than now), and the Germans move to introduce their own colonies back into Africa.

America suffers from the Depression still, without a war effort to bring them up, while Nazi Europe goes to the task of rebuilding, providing economic growth. All untermensch are killed or in hiding by 1950. Nazi space programs begin, with limited success.

In the rest of the world, fascist parties begin to take over, supported by Nazi Europe, and the world begins to organise as a group, a new sort of United Nations.

**HimoHawk** · 10-30-06, 10:37 AM

Of course, some would argue this may also lead to the world eventually bieng united under a single Nazi Government, and that would have its advantages. Much more secure economy, maybe a common language even. With few resources spent on defence, there would be more research into many things. We may heve even already colonised space...