Election over...

**MaBell37** · 10-14-08, 11:08 PM

Worst, it's people like YOU who make things worse for everyone. You want to claim that nobodies getting paid minimum wage, yet, you have no idea because, by your own admission, you get paid, "mid to upper middle class pay." Your position only works to prove my point. When was the last time you've been to the ghetto? When was the last time you had to worry about having a job or where the money was gonna come from to pay off NECESSITIES (water, electricity, heat, food, RENT)?!?

It must be nice to live in your fantasy world where everyone makes what you make.

The fact of the matter is, THEY DON'T. You are one of the excpetions to the rule.

And, just for shits and grins, lets add one more thing to the stack. I have no love lost for convicts. BUT. I DO know that at least 50% of hard criminals take a turn for the better and honestly TRY to do right after getting out. But, guess what. The system is stacked against them, too. Who honestly wants to give a convict a $50,000 a year job who just got out of prison after 10 years, regardless of what degree they got while they were in? How does THAT motivate convicts to STICK to the straight and narrow? What jobs can they get now? Pretty much the minimum wage jobs that you say don't exist except for teenagers.

My God, I can't believe the level of ignorance over real world facts. You can link/quote all you want to about NEWS agencies (do I REALLY need to go there

) who say this or who say that. All it proves is that you don't LIVE the facts from day to day and need to research them yourself. I on the other hand, HAVE lived with these facts since the day I got out of the military. But, unlike you, I KILLED people for my day to day job for the vastly majority of the time I was in for. Unfortunately, there is no legal calling for that type of work. Otherwise, I could live in fantasyland just like you.

**rv2pc3d** · 10-14-08, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by MaBell37

Worst, it's people like YOU who make things worse for everyone. You want to claim that nobodies getting paid minimum wage, yet, you have no idea because, by your own admission, you get paid, "mid to upper middle class pay." Your position only works to prove my point. When was the last time you've been to the ghetto? When was the last time you had to worry about having a job or where the money was gonna come from to pay off NECESSITIES (water, electricity, heat, food, RENT)?!?

It must be nice to live in your fantasy world where everyone makes what you make.

The fact of the matter is, THEY DON'T. You are one of the excpetions to the rule.

And, just for shits and grins, lets add one more thing to the stack. I have no love lost for convicts. BUT. I DO know that at least 50% of hard criminals take a turn for the better and honestly TRY to do right after getting out. But, guess what. The system is stacked against them, too. Who honestly wants to give a convict a $50,000 a year job who just got out of prison after 10 years, regardless of what degree they got while they were in? How does THAT motivate convicts to STICK to the straight and narrow? What jobs can they get now? Pretty much the minimum wage jobs that you say don't exist except for teenagers.

My God, I can't believe the level of ignorance over real world facts. You can link/quote all you want to about NEWS agencies (do I REALLY need to go there

) who say this or who say that. All it proves is that you don't LIVE the facts from day to day and need to research them yourself. I on the other hand, HAVE lived with these facts since the day I got out of the military. But, unlike you, I KILLED people for my day to day job for the vastly majority of the time I was in for. Unfortunately, there is no legal calling for that type of work. Otherwise, I could live in fantasyland just like you.

Good point Mabell.... in regards to our ex-convicts. In my own experience, many of those convicts are their because of drugs..... bullshit drugs. They aren't criminals, they just got caught with drugs. If and when the laws are changes, ALL OF A SUDDEN (like prohibition), they are no longer criminals. So cause of some bullshit laws, these good poeple, Amercian Citizens, People whoa re supposed to fill the jobs and make progress for our country, spend their time behind bars... and like Mabell mentioned, are ruined there after.

No wonder our work force sucks ass, we have too many good people behind bars for stupid things; several Million if not mistaken.

How can we dicipher between the real criminals and the drug users when their all grouped together. Change the laws, and we'll eliminate 75% of our Prison population..... and that's the problem. Our Prison system will go into bankruptcy, and people will be layed off. so in order to keep the system running, they (the Governing officials), must keep it populated.

On a daily basis, Laws are not being dropped, they are being added.... and it's just a matter of time before our legislatures make a law for EVERYTHING and we all get caught for something; it's inevitable.

**SapiensErus** · 10-14-08, 11:29 PM

To add to the poverty discussion:

I was a chef for a long time. I started as a dishwasher, and made minimum wage. Eventually I learned to cook, and became a line cook. Eventually, I mastered many culinary arts, and with my halfway decent thinking cap, I became the executive chef.

Now the thing is, cooks do not make minimum wage; they make a couple dollars an hour more. The executive chef (AKA kitchen manager) might make a little more, and at fine dining restaraunts, the Chef might approach 40k a year. But what i saw in that industry, is bunch of dudes, working terrible hours, doing terrible labor (cooking in a real restaraunt is hard f'in work) and generally bustin' their humps for a slice above minimum wage. They make from 20k to 30k a year tops. Most make 20k or so.

Now the guys I saw in the kitchen, worked their asses off, cut themselves, burned themselves, and were tired men. But most of them will never do more, not because they do not try, but because some are simply not smart enough, others put all their eggs in this basket and did not learn another skill and are now "too old" to learn a different trade. Most restaraunts do not offer benefits of any sort other than a week of paid vacation per year.

Look at janitors, gas stations attendants, some landscapers, warehouse workers, etc. they all do work that we rely on day after day. Many do not have any health care benefits through work, and they barely make enough to support themselves let alone buy a house or raise a family. They are known as the working poor, and they are huge amount of america.

The geometric mean income in the US 56k. When you consider that there are people making billions, that means most people are making far less. Sure, perhaps 20% are actually at federal minimum wage, but minmum wage plus 50 cents, or even 2 dollars is hard to live on. I know, I did it for 10 years, and I was one of the ones who was smart enough to get paid "well" (32k a year in 1999, which was really damn good for a Chef in my hometown).

Plain and simple, there is a huge disparity in the amount of money people can make. And there is no good justification for it. I do think people should be rewarded for doing a harder or more specialized job, but not to the tune of 2 or more orders of magnitude.

**rock_lobster** · 10-14-08, 11:31 PM

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING. It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

**~~Cecil900~~** · 10-14-08, 11:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyspC...amacrimes.com/

**rock_lobster** · 10-14-08, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

Now the guys I saw in the kitchen, worked their asses off, cut themselves, burned themselves, and were tired men. But most of them will never do more, not because they do not try, but because some are simply not smart enough,

Did daddy tell them that they were stupid? Is someone holding thei family hostage saying they can't learn something new? Not smart enough my ass. that such a lame excuse. I respect the fact that you are a hard worker soy, and I most definitely appreciate the hard work people do for little pay. But I promise you if you ask people who do hard work for little pay, if they would make different choices if they could go back in time, they would say yes. It's unfortunate that they have to do these jobs, but they should have made better choices.

Not smart enough? I can't believe you actually buy into that.

**SpecOpsScott** · 10-14-08, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

I too am a go-getter, so minimum wage is not an Issue for me. However, it is for MOST if not ALL of my neighbors. Poor bastards are working their ass' off, for NOTHING.

Not everyone is a "go-getter". Some people just have no effort or no ambition, yet they are Citizens of our Country none the less, and deserve opportunity like everyone else. That opportunity is driven by wages..... and our Amercian compaines provide those wages.

Unfortunatly, profit and greed have overshadowed what is best for our people.

Just think, if we paid our people just a little bit more money instead of some 700 billion dollar bailout, would we be in the same boat we are today...? I don't know, but I'd rather do that then give the money to the rich.

I agree with that for the most part RV, i do like your thinking. I like the way you worded one sentence with "deserve opportunity". Too many people confuse that with "deserve a handout". Ive been at both ends of the spectrum in my life, dirt poor, and quite well off, and i can tell you this with utter certainty, the chances of making the American dream are slim for the best of us. Drive and ambition are the key, but taxes and strict regulation can and will get in the way of that opportunity. The Middle class and lower are getting milked for all we are worth, we are kept here for a system that grants the greatest opportunity to those with the greatest means, using our money to do it. It is a fucked up situation we're in ain't it?

**rv2pc3d** · 10-14-08, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING. It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

Ahh, I see. So for the ones who do not make the good choices, we get to F**k them over now... We, those of us who have made good choices and are now looking for cheap labor.

I understand now....

**SapiensErus** · 10-14-08, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING. It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

Your way of thinking, as noted by psychologists, provides you a cognitive defense against feeling like you could be one of them.

I know a lot of poor folks, most of them are not lazy. Some are not too smart, and some have really bad luck. But to say that they are simply lazy proves a hell of a lot of ignorance. They are poor because of disparate payscales. We rely on their work, we need to pay them what they are worth. Likewise, we need to pay CEOs what they are actually worth.

Calamari has a high "percieved cost." It is cheap as shit to buy though, but most diners do not know that, so they are willing to pay a silly amount of money to get an order. The same thing is happening with pay scales; sure that CEO worked hard, but is he really worth MILLIONS a year? Hell no! Those people are being exploited; the dock worker, cook, warehouse worker, gutter cleaner, etc. is being exploited by people who make way too much money.

The gap is too big, and to say that poor people are poor because they did something wrong really demonstrates a lot of ignorance on your part.

**rv2pc3d** · 10-14-08, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by MaBell37

My God, I can't believe the level of ignorance over real world facts.

And Mabell, I don't think some of what we assume is ignorance, but more in the way of Hatred. Everyone knows the facts, but some choice to ignore them completely. why?