Election over...

**SpecOpsScott** · 10-14-08, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

Ahh, I see. So for the ones who do not make the good choices, we get to F**k them over now... We, those of us who have made good choices and are now looking for cheap labor.

I understand now....

RV, the choices are always there. Going through your life with a "would have, should have" attitude WILL land you on the welfare line. Education is a must, but not necessarily on a college level, but trade oriented. I love my sales job, its a cushy 40K job that takes up about 45 hours a week. But because i "learned" a trade, i can land a pump replacement or boiler installation that will take me about 8 hours and net 1000 bucks. Theres a long list of why i do what i do, but the bottom line, its because of the never ending string of choices i make every day, that i am where i am. And if i fuck up, and make the wrong choice, i don't turn to the Government to fix it, i look in the mirror.

**SapiensErus** · 10-14-08, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

Now the guys I saw in the kitchen, worked their asses off, cut themselves, burned themselves, and were tired men. But most of them will never do more, not because they do not try, but because some are simply not smart enough,

Did daddy tell them that they were stupid? Is someone holding thei family hostage saying they can't learn something new? Not smart enough my ass. that such a lame excuse. I respect the fact that you are a hard worker soy, and I most definitely appreciate the hard work people do for little pay. But I promise you if you ask people who do hard work for little pay, if they would make different choices if they could go back in time, they would say yes. It's unfortunate that they have to do these jobs, but they should have made better choices.

Not smart enough? I can't believe you actually buy into that.

You have met morons before no?

And what I buy, is scientific studies, and yes, some people are just stupid, others are poorly educated (usually because of socio-ECONOMIC status).

Think about this, if EVERYONE can be a CEO, who needs laborers? Well we need both, and I would reckon that those low paid laborers are almost MORE important than the CEOs.

At one time, all these "crappy" jobs paid enough to make a decent living, and that was not too long ago. Our disparate payscales are what has made those people poor. Having a trade is not a mistake, working hard is not a mistake, taking pride in your craft is not a mistake, but paying people less than they are worth is a huge mistake, and it is biting America in the ass as more and more people fall off the deep end of the payscale.

Hell, if I could make a decent living as a Chef, I would be a happy man; I love to see people being made happy eating some of my award winning baby-back ribs. I think my desire for knowledge would have pushed me to school at some point anyway, but really the thankless and impoverishing payscale is what drove me away. it is simply unfair, and unequitable. It is un-American to leave those hardworking laborers behind. They are US, and they deserve better.

**rv2pc3d** · 10-14-08, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by SpecOpsScott

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

Ahh, I see. So for the ones who do not make the good choices, we get to F**k them over now... We, those of us who have made good choices and are now looking for cheap labor.

I understand now....

RV, the choices are always there. Going through your life with a "would have, should have" attitude WILL land you on the welfare line. Education is a must, but not necessarily on a college level, but trade oriented. I love my sales job, its a cushy 40K job that takes up about 45 hours a week. But because i "learned" a trade, i can land a pump replacement or boiler installation that will take me about 8 hours and net 1000 bucks. Theres a long list of why i do what i do, but the bottom line, its because of the never ending string of choices i make every day, that i am where i am. And if i fuck up, and make the wrong choice, i don't turn to the Government to fix it, i look in the mirror.

Agreed Scott. But some of our population, "bless their Hearts", are true dumb fucks. They are Adults making our burgers, stocking our shelves and Ironging our clothes. So what do we do with those folks.... ship them to Canada or give them something to work towards, HOPE.

I do apoligize if you are an adult making burgers, or working in any of the other fields I mentioned.... I too have made my fair share of burgers...

**SpecOpsScott** · 10-14-08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

At one time, all these "crappy" jobs paid enough to make a decent living, and that was not too long ago. Our disparate payscales are what has made those people poor. Having a trade is not a mistake, working hard is not a mistake, taking pride in your craft is not a mistake, but paying people less than they are worth is a huge mistake, and it is biting America in the ass as more and more people fall off the deep end of the payscale.

Hell, if I could make a decent living as a Chef, I would be a happy man; I love to see people being made happy eating some of my award winning baby-back ribs. I think my desire for knowledge would have pushed me to school at some point anyway, but really the thankless and impoverishing payscale is what drove me away. it is simply unfair, and unequitable. It is un-American to leave those hardworking laborers behind. They are US, and they deserve better.

OMG! Is there an Alter of Soy that i may worship at? Well worded my freind.

**rock_lobster** · 10-14-08, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING. It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

Ahh, I see. So for the ones who do not make the good choices, we get to F**k them over now... We, those of us who have made good choices and are now looking for cheap labor.

I understand now....

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I hate poor people and want them all to die....[/end sarcasm]. Gimme a break. I am making my choice, to get a college education, so I can make good money and provide a great life for my wife and kids. In the next 10 years or so I plan to have a 401k, healthcare, new car, mortgage, wife, kids, etc... If I run into one of my highschool buddies or a friend who decided to drop out of college, I'm not going to feel sorry for him/her because he/she is now forced to wait tables full time at age 33 (nothing wrong with that by the way, it's an honest living). I won't like them any more or any less, but I don't think they deserve a handout from the government, nor do I feel that they are deserving of my tax dollars to pay for their healthcare without them doing a damn thing for it.

I'm not a snob, really I'm not. I want to help the poor and people who are down on their luck, but not for years at a time while they sit there doing nothing. It sucks that people have to work 60 hour weeks and don't get paid much for it, but that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, so I dont have to do that.

capitalism can be a bitch if you aren't willing to work or better yourself.

Maybe I'm biased because of the culture in my State (southern Louisiana); if that's the case, then I'll get over it and move on. Here, people feel they are entitled to everything, but also feel they aren't required to do anything. And when you call them out on it, you get called a racist or a snob.

**rv2pc3d** · 10-15-08, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING. It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

Ahh, I see. So for the ones who do not make the good choices, we get to F**k them over now... We, those of us who have made good choices and are now looking for cheap labor.

I understand now....

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I hate poor people and want them all to die....[/end sarcasm]. Gimme a break. I am making my choice, to get a college education, so I can make good money and provide a great life for my wife and kids. In the next 10 years or so I plan to have a 401k, healthcare, new car, mortgage, wife, kids, etc... If I run into one of my highschool buddies or a friend who decided to drop out of college, I'm not going to feel sorry for him/her because he/she is now forced to wait tables full time at age 33 (nothing wrong with that by the way, it's an honest living). I won't like them any more or any less, but I don't think they deserve a handout from the government, nor do I feel that they are deserving of my tax dollars to pay for their healthcare without them doing a damn thing for it.

I'm not a snob, really I'm not. I want to help the poor and people who are down on their luck, but not for years at a time while they sit there doing nothing. It sucks that people have to work 60 hour weeks and don't get paid much for it, but that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, so I dont have to do that.

capitalism can be a bitch if you aren't willing to work or better yourself.

Maybe I'm biased because of the culture in my State (southern Louisiana); if that's the case, then I'll get over it and move on. Here, people feel they are entitled to everything, but also feel they aren't required to do anything. And when you call them out on it, you get called a racist or a snob.

I couldn't agree with you more Rock... However, I'm not taking about handouts.... I dislike handouts, and do not handout myself. I'm talking about worth.

The real Issue IMO, derives from the word CHEAP. Cheap means that someone is getting screwed, while someone else makes fat profit.

Whatever happened to worth, where a price of an Item is based upon the well being of all involved. Why the Hell does a burger need to be $.99? Why can't it be $4.00, so that everyone get's their worth.

When I bid a project, I make sure that all parties involved get their worth.... and i'm usually not the cheapest bid. In fact, I'm never the cheapest bid (anymore). If a Client wants cheap, he can takes his money somewhere else, cause I don't work for cheap. I work for worth!

**MaBell37** · 10-15-08, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You can talk about grown adults working minimum wage jobs all you want. People make 50k a year because they made a choice. A choice to get an education, a choice to better themselves by going to a trade school, community college, a university. There are a good amount of people trapped in an endless generational cycle of being born into a bad situation, making poor decisions because they feel sorry for themselves, and now they feel they are entitled to a hand out. If you ask me, you want to end poverty, stop giving out welfare to undeserving people who are simply too lazy to get off their ass and get a job. When in highschool, fucking get good grades and go to college. Don't have the money? Get a loan, grant, etc... something. Don't just sit on your ass and DO NOTHING.

Bull-fucking-shit. I know PLENTY of people who are smart AND motivated to do better, but, because of the way our country is run, are shit out of fucking luck because they were either, not born into the right family (for status OR money), or were raised in an area where they just ARENT any opportunities and can't afford, or won't because of familiy, move somewhere where there are. Please, enough with the fuckin bullhshit. Tell it to someone who doesn't know what I know. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of sorry motherfuckers out there who just take, take, take. I'm trying to stick up for the people who can't take 1 step forward for the five back this country makes em take. And, before you go jumping down the throats of underage girls, let's remember two things. First, you can preach all that holier than thou bullshit, but the fact remains, people do it. So, instead of feeding fuel to the fire, why don't you come up with some realistic answers. And, TWO, let'a ALSO not forget that sex is a two way street. Girls, young ladies, women, WHAT-the-fuck-ever, can't fucking get pregnant by themselves. That means that SOMEhow a guy is involved, which means it is SHARED responsibilty on BOTH their parts to protect against unwanted pregnancies. And, not for nothin', but, birth control ain't 100% guaranteed, sometimes shit happens. That's life. It's nice to talk about how everything SHOULD be, but even I realize that it ain't never gonna be that way. Get real.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

It's all about choices. And making a choice to take from hardworking people and give to those who are perfectly able to provide for themselves is bullshit.

I'm so tired of hearing "I want to help the underaged mother who is working 2 jobs and still cant afford healthcare". Woman shouldn't have had sex at such a young age if she wasn't ready for the responsibilty. So because she fucked up (literally) people who actually made proper decisions will have their taxes go towards her healthcare issues (that she caused for herself). Louisiana has the TOPS program. If you make good grades in high school, they pay your tuition (does not include books, fees, etc...). I got this because I live in LA, but lost it 2nd year because my college grades slipped, and guess what? I went out, got a loan and am working my ass off to get my degree so I dont have to work at Wal Mart for the rest of my life and depend on government handouts.

A vote for a democratic candidate is a vote for laziness and free handouts for those who refuse to get off their ass. Obama is no exception....Socialist bastard.

PS....I don't much care for McCain either, so don't think I'm "Barrack Bashing" in the name of McCain. I just think all of Obama's pretty words are misleading and will leave us jaw dropped because we've been had.

As for the choices you talk about, it's nice to be able to BE in a position to make those choices. Not everyone can, for whatever reasons. "It's all about choices" is just more rhetoric bullshit to make the people who are not in that position themselves feel better about their contribution to society, or lack thereof.

**MaBell37** · 10-15-08, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by SpecOpsScott

Originally Posted by rv2pc3d

I too am a go-getter, so minimum wage is not an Issue for me. However, it is for MOST if not ALL of my neighbors. Poor bastards are working their ass' off, for NOTHING.

Not everyone is a "go-getter". Some people just have no effort or no ambition, yet they are Citizens of our Country none the less, and deserve opportunity like everyone else. That opportunity is driven by wages..... and our Amercian compaines provide those wages.

Unfortunatly, profit and greed have overshadowed what is best for our people.

Just think, if we paid our people just a little bit more money instead of some 700 billion dollar bailout, would we be in the same boat we are today...? I don't know, but I'd rather do that then give the money to the rich.

I agree with that for the most part RV, i do like your thinking. I like the way you worded one sentence with "deserve opportunity". Too many people confuse that with "deserve a handout". Ive been at both ends of the spectrum in my life, dirt poor, and quite well off, and i can tell you this with utter certainty, the chances of making the American dream are slim for the best of us. Drive and ambition are the key, but taxes and strict regulation can and will get in the way of that opportunity. The Middle class and lower are getting milked for all we are worth, we are kept here for a system that grants the greatest opportunity to those with the greatest means, using our money to do it. It is a fucked up situation we're in ain't it?

BINGO!!! Scott, you hit that fucking nail, square on the head!

**HeavyG** · 10-15-08, 01:19 AM

I decided to jump into this thread...

I have been poor, without a working car, in debt, lucky to have an apartment, no phone, TV, internet... it wasnt fun. I was barely making my rent each month living off of Cup Of Noodles and a home made sandwich each night... but I didnt give up.

I was "lucky" enough to get a terrible job at a sweatshop of a call center when I graduated high school ($9/hour). It was enough to help me get by when I first started college. And when I say college, I do not mean the type of college that your parents pay for while I party each night. I mean the type of college where I had to bust my ass working 40+ hours/week so I could pay for my pile of shit apartment, pay my tuition/books, and keep me fed. I was also a beer drinker and a pack a day smoker at the time... it adds up.

Then the bad luck happened... my apartment was broken into. My TV, Guitar, Amplifier, DVD Player and Stereo Receiver were all stolen. Luckily my PC was not stolen since it was in the closet as I had no internet. I had no renters insurance. 6 weeks later my car (95 Honda Accord) was stolen from right outside my job and wrecked. I did have insurance, but I was without a car for like 3 weeks... no rental coverage. I had to bum a ride to work until the car got fixed, which cost me $500 that I really didnt have at the time.

So now, I was in debt, with no assets, living in a shitty neighborhood, all alone. Did I give up? Did I sit around blaming society? Did I start breaking the law and stealing or dealing drugs to get by?

The answer to all of those is NO. I did not give up. I continued to work at my shitty job until someone realized that I was a hard worker, dedicated, and smart. I got promoted to an administrative position that runs the call center instead of actually taking calls. I applied for financial aid to ease my burden of paying for school... more debt, but at least I didnt have to worry about making tuition each semester. About a year later, I got promoted at work and became the Supervisor of my department. The increase in salary was quite a relief... but I deserved it. I was loyal, worked hard, kept a positive attitude, and it payed off.

Since then I have continued to work my way up in management in two huge companies, The Home Depot (2 years until site closed down due to shitty housing economy), and most recently at Medco Health Solutions (biggest mail order pharmacy in the world).

There are many choices I could have made. Giving up is the easy way out. I quit smoking, quit drinking, and kept working hard to pay for the important things. I continued to work hard and it all paid off in the end.

So am I the exception to the rule? Perhaps. Struggling is not easy... it is, well, a struggle. I have seen so many people give up, stop caring, continuing on with their bad habits, and gradually spiral into poverty. Many of my friends are either unemployed or job hopping, yet they still want to go out to the bar for a drink. I get very angry with them when I have to listen to them throwing a "pity party" for themselves. Everything is always someone elses fault. There is never any ownership or accountability for their own actions.

They don't have a job, they blame the economy and the president... yet they continue to do drugs and drink all day. Instead of cleaning up, applying for jobs, and interviewing... they sulk and say there are no jobs out there. They expect to be the people that go from unemployed to making $50k/year. They do not expect to have to work their way up.

Nobody said it is easy to get a job. The rate of people without jobs in America (not the unemployment rate... there is a difference) is alarmingly high. A lot of this does have to do with how the corproate CEOs have been running companies. When I was working for The Home Depot, our CEO, Bob Nardelli, was making something like $40 million/year. Nardelli stepped down and was replaced by Frank Blake for a mere $11 million/year. Nardelli, who received millions and millions from his seperation package went to Chrysler to work for $1 dollar. He didnt need the money because of his golden parachute (and not to mention all of the insane tax breaks he received from the policies of the Bush administration... but I got my $300!). He was safe and was able to take a CEO position for $1 dollar. Six months later I was laid off... I got another job.

I feel like I have written a lot but have not concluded in anything. Basically what I am saying is that yes, America needs a lot of people to work at minimum wage (or close to it). People just need to understand that when they work at minumum wage, they should be living a different lifestyle. They shouldn't be buying their XBOX and iPhones or falling into expensive addictive habits. It IS possible to get by on low hourly wage jobs. You may not have an extravigant livestyle, but it is possible. It is all based on the decisions you make and the things you do. Eventually that starting position may get you somewhere, but if you call out of work a bunch, get written up, or fired from every job you have, then you will never work out.

Responsibility is a bitch, and as Rock stated, so is Capitalism. The world needs plenty of ditch diggers too... If you find yourself in that position, then try to climb out... it just takes confidence and hard work. If it is too much for you, then stay in the ditch.

**MaBell37** · 10-15-08, 01:32 AM

Well, you know, Heavy, that's all well and fine. And, to a point, I agree with you. BUT, that does NOT mean that there are some seriously well off people who are more interested in THEIR profits than anything else, who continually make it harder for people not in their position.

Yeah, shit happens, and, you really have to have something special to be able to live so optimistically and keep fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting. I have, I've been there, done that. Still doing it today. Just because I'm a 100% disabled vet doesn't mean in any way that I have life easy. I don't go out, except once in a while for something to eat, of which I'm down to pretty much one meal a day. Why? Not because I'm so poor that I can't afford to eat better, though it's pretty close. No, the reason is, I just don't have the will to live anymore. I do a lot of sleeping, mostly a by-product of the meds the VA has me on, and the rest of the time I just play video games because I have no desire to go out and mingle with a society that I just would NOT have defended against shit had I known then what I know now. Ok, maybe that's a little harsh, I probably still would have, but I had to say that just to let you know how dissatisfied I am with the profits that just a very select few have made/are making, off the freedom that people like ME provide(d) them with.

You can say that I have given up all you want, but, in the end, there is NO difference that people like me can make. Maybe I can change one or two people's life for the better, but, all that is, is flotation device that only works for one or two people, while the rest of the people keep getting worse and worse off.

Focusing the attention on what the "little guys" would/could or should do only justifies to the people who really CAN make a difference for masses of people on an astronomical scale, that they don't need to because people just don't deserve better.

Fuck that.