Thread: Understanding the Stimulus Bill

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Here's the deal...Obama and his people have their heart in the right place but they are going about it all wrong. They have concentrated their efforts on giving tax dollars to those who have proven themselves to be irresponsible with money.

The fix is to go after people who want to work! JOBS!

The infrastructure portion of the stimulus is the only part that comes close to satisfing this need. Unfortunately, this part of the stimulus only accounts for 25% of the money.

I could go on forever but why bother? We have taxation without representation.

See that is something that pisses me off about it.

Everything we are slated for in Portland is infrastructure. It is all useful stuff that we have been needing to get done. The items in the stimulus package for specific states were picked by the governmental bodies of those states, correct? At least I can take faith in the fact that my state is picking some pretty useful items.


Just curious: Who are they giving it to that has been irresponsible? I saw the last stimulous package go to companies that failed because of their greed and short sightedness. And it was largely those mega corporations, coupled with our expensive war, that have led to the pit we are in now. This new money is going to local state government, correct?

I didnt like the last 'stimulus' package either, it shouldn't have gone to the bad corporations.

Why does the state government need money? I thought that is why we pay taxes... oh wait, it is because government spends irresponsibly and is in debt. Seems like a vicious cycle to me. Where are all the cuts in government to save money? All I see is spending to fix a hole, not rebuild a dam.

Not all the jobs are temporary it is true, but all the construction work created by most of the infrastructure projects are. If you have ever worked construction you know how much of a seasonal thing it can be sometimes.

But that's the point, that's why there are only 20-30% infrastructure jobs and only a certain portion of those jobs are temporary. That basically tells me that the majority of all jobs created are exactly that, jobs, not work.

Here is the approximate breakdown (released 2 weeks before signing so it is not exact):

$102 B - Unemployment/food stamps
$42 B - Highway/rail/mass transit
$211 B - State gov't aid
$70 B - Healthcare/education/environment
$110 B - Business tax benefits
$165 B - Individual tax benefits
$119 B - "Other"
$819 B - Total

There is a variety of ways the average person can benefit but my issue is we are not willing to allow business and people to fail. Once we recognize this is needed we can send funding to those who are responsible first. Until then we are helping the irresponsible people/businesses first, which equals wasted money. The bailout of AIG proved this.

Our country has lost sight of the fact that living the American dream is not a right but an opportunity.

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Our country has lost sight of the fact that living the American dream is not a right but an opportunity.

It also sets an awful precedent that if your business is important enough, that you can ask/demand for government aide instead of failing and letting capitalism run as normal. Basically the government is becoming part of business and I am not sure if I trust either with my tax dollars right now.

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Our country has lost sight of the fact that living the American dream is not a right but an opportunity.

It also sets an awful precedent that if your business is important enough, that you can ask/demand for government aide instead of failing and letting capitalism run as normal. Basically the government is becoming part of business and I am not sure if I trust either with my tax dollars right now.

Capitalism is what got us in this mess in the first place. It's not that it was shear capitalism but the lack of government involvement allowed greedy capitalists to take advantage of people. Allowing businesses to fail is one thing but allowing capitalism to run as normal would be a mistake felt by the working class while the beneficiaries, the capitalists, get richer.

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

These projects will create jobs for next few years. Perhaps after new routes are being used new businesses will open along them to take advantage of the traffic? Maybe things will just be "better" by then? Maybe the money saved in gas and free time will be spent on other local businesses who will have to hire more workers? Maybe the people who worked on these projects will now have more skills to move them into better positions allowing other people to come up up and new workers to come in?

I could coming up with maybes... that is the only issue: They are all maybes, and any economic fix will be a maybe. We all just have to try hard to make things work and have faith in the American spirit that we will turn this around, and not only fix our economy but rise up to the top again in terms of science and engineering. Which, as it turns out, are another maybe as we build all these modern (green) infrastructure projects.

That's a hell of a lot of maybes to be mortgaging our kids future on...and what the hell do line items like $4B for ACORN or Medical Records have to do with stimulus? What does that do to create jobs and stabilize the economy?

Rubbish.

DC, political payback rubbish.

FOUR BILLION DOLLARS FOR ACORN?! Are they serious?

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Here's the deal...Obama and his people have their heart in the right place but they are going about it all wrong. They have concentrated their efforts on giving tax dollars to those who have proven themselves to be irresponsible with money.

The fix is to go after people who want to work! JOBS!

The infrastructure portion of the stimulus is the only part that comes close to satisfing this need. Unfortunately, this part of the stimulus only accounts for 25% of the money.

I could go on forever but why bother? We have taxation without representation.

Not every businessman who lost his job has the desire to become a construction worker, that's why the list of projects serve multiple sectors, I don't understand why people don't understand that.

Also, as someone else mentioned, not ALL of the jobs produced are temporary, some are PERMANENT.

Which are permanent? Which are high skilled? NEW JOB CREATION...not job preservation for some engineer that already works for the City of Portland and had no projects in the hopper...NEW jobs...name some high skilled jobs that will be newly created.

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Blakeman

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Our country has lost sight of the fact that living the American dream is not a right but an opportunity.

It also sets an awful precedent that if your business is important enough, that you can ask/demand for government aide instead of failing and letting capitalism run as normal. Basically the government is becoming part of business and I am not sure if I trust either with my tax dollars right now.

Capitalism is what got us in this mess in the first place. It's not that it was shear capitalism but the lack of government involvement allowed greedy capitalists to take advantage of people. Allowing businesses to fail is one thing but allowing capitalism to run as normal would be a mistake felt by the working class while the beneficiaries, the capitalists, get richer.

Capitalism is what got us into this mess. I do believe that regulation is great and so is fiscal responsibility. Government in complete control though moves us to a place where new business can never prosper and old stagnant business die. Face it, the car industry fucked themselves, so did a lot of these major banks. While I don't think they should have ever been allowed to become as big as they are, I also feel they should be able to fail so that new business can take root. I would rather see Toyota open new plants here in the US than for the Government to bail out GM every time they screw the pooch.

Capitalism, as with all things requires monitoring and is also cyclical. There are bad times with all, but if you change things around too much you could collapse the whole. The United States of America should never be my bank or car company, period.

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

Originally Posted by CivilWars

Capitalism is all the fault of big business and greedy owners. I mean they snuck into all of these people's houses, stole their money, gave them products and services they had no need for and could not afford, and maxed out their credit cards. I can't understand how all of these businesses got so big and out of control when Joe American was so smart with his money? The average American is just as selfish and greedy as the guy with the golden parachute, it's just the average American uses their greed to buy houses, cars, and toys that are too big for them, while captain corporate uses it too build businesses too big.

+1

I agree wholeheartedly. When you throw government in the mix too, I worry for the future of these United States.

Originally Posted by Consultant

Originally Posted by jmw_man

Originally Posted by Firedog911

Here's the deal...Obama and his people have their heart in the right place but they are going about it all wrong. They have concentrated their efforts on giving tax dollars to those who have proven themselves to be irresponsible with money.

The fix is to go after people who want to work! JOBS!

The infrastructure portion of the stimulus is the only part that comes close to satisfing this need. Unfortunately, this part of the stimulus only accounts for 25% of the money.

I could go on forever but why bother? We have taxation without representation.

Not every businessman who lost his job has the desire to become a construction worker, that's why the list of projects serve multiple sectors, I don't understand why people don't understand that.

Also, as someone else mentioned, not ALL of the jobs produced are temporary, some are PERMANENT.

Which are permanent? Which are high skilled? NEW JOB CREATION...not job preservation for some engineer that already works for the City of Portland and had no projects in the hopper...NEW jobs...name some high skilled jobs that will be newly created.

you mentioned one yourself in the post above.

Originally Posted by Consultant

That's a hell of a lot of maybes to be mortgaging our kids future on...and what the hell do line items like $4B for ACORN or Medical Records have to do with stimulus? What does that do to create jobs and stabilize the economy?

Rubbish.

DC, political payback rubbish.

FOUR BILLION DOLLARS FOR ACORN?! Are they serious?

I don't know the specifics of the medical record conversion plan but I do know it will require IT guys to set up the system. Additionally, it will require personnel to enter existing information into electronic format. It may not stimulate in the way you think but it does create jobs and better our medical system. With the creation of jobs people have money to spend, ah, there's our stimulus I think.

Keep in mind, that's just one example, I don't have the time since I'm at work to go through every single line item but I would love to later on. Anybody have the most up to date list of projects proposed in the stimulus plan?