Thread: President Obama's Speech

Originally Posted by SoySoldier

I do not see new taxes being applied to me. Cite them please.

It is not the market that determined the cost, but a collaboration (collusion is illegal by the way) between pharmaceutical, medical, and insurance firms to maximize their profits. For the insured, the cost of those bone scans is much lower. My father is battling lung cancer and had major invasive surgery and now checkups every few months, including MRI, CAT, and other scans. Because of a fatty insurance package he has the whole deal has cost him q pretty penny at around 50k. Had he been uninsured, he still would have been treated (as hospitals cannot specifically deny treatment) but it would have cost him half a million. 50,000 versus 500,000 just because he has insurance. Who pays for that? Oh yeah... everyone else who pays into the system. As demonstrated by the multitude of graphs I posted in other threads about healthcare, those other systems you all poo-poo on cost the government less money per capita as a percentage of the national budget than we pay here AND the people live longer healthy lives on average, have a lower infant mortality rate, etc. And I know some of you will cite the very small percentage of anecdotes about people coming here for cancer treatment and other specialized care...they are paying huge money for that.

Obama's plan stinks. Because it is not pure public option.

I forget the actual names he gave them. I think it was bad health tax or some shit. Taxes on non health items like soda and cigarettes. I didn't site anything for cost that i haven't actually had. I could give you the cost of blood flow tests, mri's, and so on i just left it at bonescan because i've had 4 or 5 of them.

Originally Posted by CallousDisregard

Joe Wilson was correct in that while there is no specific provision to cover illegals there is also no method of verifying immigration status.
That means illegals will get benefits.
The American people DO NOT support that in any way shape or form but when our President was a state Senator he did support a bill that would provide health and education for those who chose to enter our country illegally.

Example #1 of you being wrong. There is no provision to prevent illegals from BUYING insurance, just as there isn't any provision now. There are provisions to prevent them from receiving any benefits. Another example of you not letting facts get in your way.


[/quote]Actually illegal aliens can get FREE benefits and DO even now. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlThere are plenty of illegals on Medicaid as we speak. The new reform would allow SOME illegals on the plan."Critics of the health care bill, however, cite a couple of possible loopholes." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...h-care-part-2/ The exact quote from Obama was "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants," Obama said. "This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." When researched this is what was decided: From our examination of the House bill, we don't see any verification system, either. The Congressional Research Service, a non-partisan research arm of Congress, agrees. In a report issued Aug. 25, 2009, CRS wrote that "H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status."http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-health-bill-/

Originally Posted by HuntnJade

Originally Posted by CallousDisregard

Joe Wilson was correct in that while there is no specific provision to cover illegals there is also no method of verifying immigration status.
That means illegals will get benefits.
The American people DO NOT support that in any way shape or form but when our President was a state Senator he did support a bill that would provide health and education for those who chose to enter our country illegally.

Example #1 of you being wrong. There is no provision to prevent illegals from BUYING insurance, just as there isn't any provision now. There are provisions to prevent them from receiving any benefits. Another example of you not letting facts get in your way.


Actually illegal aliens can get FREE benefits and DO even now. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlThere are plenty of illegals on Medicaid as we speak. The new reform would allow SOME illegals on the plan."Critics of the health care bill, however, cite a couple of possible loopholes." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...h-care-part-2/ The exact quote from Obama was "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants," Obama said. "This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." When researched this is what was decided: From our examination of the House bill, we don't see any verification system, either. The Congressional Research Service, a non-partisan research arm of Congress, agrees. In a report issued Aug. 25, 2009, CRS wrote that "H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status."http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-health-bill-/

While true that its illegal, there isnt any provision that forces someone to actually check their citizenship. So why bother writing that illegals arent eligible without writing that in order to receive benefits you have to prove citizenship? Those should go hand in hand, and the ommission of enforcement is what has people concerned. If keeping illegals from receiving tax-funded benefits is their true intent, it should be easy to add the verbage to make the conservatives happy. I dont suggest holding your breath for that though. :P

Foz, where did you find surveyusa? Rasmussen has approval of reform at 46% after the speech, it was lower before that. Gallup is even lower at 37% wanting their elected representatives to vote for reform.

Sweden and the Netherlands both have universal coverage fully provided by private insurance at 10-12% of GDP (US is at 16%). Why isnt anyone looking at a solution like that instead of perpetuating the myth that the only way to cover everyone is through socialized medicine and some government managed and funded entity? Source

Originally Posted by SJA

Originally Posted by HuntnJade

Originally Posted by CallousDisregard

Joe Wilson was correct in that while there is no specific provision to cover illegals there is also no method of verifying immigration status.
That means illegals will get benefits.
The American people DO NOT support that in any way shape or form but when our President was a state Senator he did support a bill that would provide health and education for those who chose to enter our country illegally.

Example #1 of you being wrong. There is no provision to prevent illegals from BUYING insurance, just as there isn't any provision now. There are provisions to prevent them from receiving any benefits. Another example of you not letting facts get in your way.


Actually illegal aliens can get FREE benefits and DO even now. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlThere are plenty of illegals on Medicaid as we speak. The new reform would allow SOME illegals on the plan."Critics of the health care bill, however, cite a couple of possible loopholes." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...h-care-part-2/ The exact quote from Obama was "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants," Obama said. "This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." When researched this is what was decided: From our examination of the House bill, we don't see any verification system, either. The Congressional Research Service, a non-partisan research arm of Congress, agrees. In a report issued Aug. 25, 2009, CRS wrote that "H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status."http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-health-bill-/

While true that its illegal, there isnt any provision that forces someone to actually check their citizenship. So why bother writing that illegals arent eligible without writing that in order to receive benefits you have to prove citizenship? Those should go hand in hand, and the ommission of enforcement is what has people concerned. If keeping illegals from receiving tax-funded benefits is their true intent, it should be easy to add the verbage to make the conservatives happy. I dont suggest holding your breath for that though. :P

Foz, where did you find surveyusa? Rasmussen has approval of reform at 46% after the speech, it was lower before that. Gallup is even lower at 37% wanting their elected representatives to vote for reform.

Sweden and the Netherlands both have universal coverage fully provided by private insurance at 10-12% of GDP (US is at 16%). Why isnt anyone looking at a solution like that instead of perpetuating the myth that the only way to cover everyone is through socialized medicine and some government managed and funded entity? Source

Because in order to prove citizenship all you have to do is show an ID. Not that anyone would ever consider getting a fake ID or using fake ssn to obtain an ID. That would never happen.

Originally Posted by SJA

While true that its illegal, there isnt any provision that forces someone to actually check their citizenship. So why bother writing that illegals arent eligible without writing that in order to receive benefits you have to prove citizenship? Those should go hand in hand, and the ommission of enforcement is what has people concerned. If keeping illegals from receiving tax-funded benefits is their true intent, it should be easy to add the verbage to make the conservatives happy. I dont suggest holding your breath for that though. :P

They can't get any tax-funded benefits under the House bill. It explicitly denies that. It doesn't prevent them from BUYING health insurance. What, may I ask, is the problem with allowing illegals to buy health insurance? Is it better to deny them that right and have us end up paying for them when they end up in an emergency room anyways?

Originally Posted by SJA

Foz, where did you find surveyusa? Rasmussen has approval of reform at 46% after the speech, it was lower before that. Gallup is even lower at 37% wanting their elected representatives to vote for reform.

The SurveyUSA poll shows that there is universal support for a public option. It is not about this package.

Originally Posted by SJA

Sweden and the Netherlands both have universal coverage fully provided by private insurance at 10-12% of GDP (US is at 16%). Why isnt anyone looking at a solution like that instead of perpetuating the myth that the only way to cover everyone is through socialized medicine and some government managed and funded entity? Source

Switzerland, not Sweden. This current plan is not putting forward "socialized medicine" or a Medicare-for-all type program. And do you want mandates and being required to buy insurance? They have those there, and if you don't buy insurance, they fine you. In those countries, though, there are extremely strict controls on the private insurers and it is illegal for them to post a profit off the basic package. In fact, much of this is what conservatives are rallying against anyways as the Democratic plan is relatively close, although more conservative, to what they have in Switzerland and the Netherlands.

They don't check your status to get health insurance now, so what changes? Plus, I know plenty of natural born American citizens that couldn't prove it if asked to, not without going through all the rigmarole to get a new BC printed (without having the old one, it can take years).

The idea is not to turn healthcare into the DMV I think.

Originally Posted by Xoria

They don't check your status to get health insurance now, so what changes? Plus, I know plenty of natural born American citizens that couldn't prove it if asked to, not without going through all the rigmarole to get a new BC printed (without having the old one, it can take years).

The idea is not to turn healthcare into the DMV I think.

It only takes 6 to 8 weeks to get a new birth certificate. I've done it twice and the hospital where i was born burned down. So it took a little more work but over all it's easy to get a new birth certificate.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by SJA

While true that its illegal, there isnt any provision that forces someone to actually check their citizenship. So why bother writing that illegals arent eligible without writing that in order to receive benefits you have to prove citizenship? Those should go hand in hand, and the ommission of enforcement is what has people concerned. If keeping illegals from receiving tax-funded benefits is their true intent, it should be easy to add the verbage to make the conservatives happy. I dont suggest holding your breath for that though. :P

They can't get any tax-funded benefits under the House bill. It explicitly denies that. It doesn't prevent them from BUYING health insurance. What, may I ask, is the problem with allowing illegals to buy health insurance? Is it better to deny them that right and have us end up paying for them when they end up in an emergency room anyways?

Originally Posted by SJA

Foz, where did you find surveyusa? Rasmussen has approval of reform at 46% after the speech, it was lower before that. Gallup is even lower at 37% wanting their elected representatives to vote for reform.

The SurveyUSA poll shows that there is universal support for a public option. It is not about this package.

Originally Posted by SJA

Sweden and the Netherlands both have universal coverage fully provided by private insurance at 10-12% of GDP (US is at 16%). Why isnt anyone looking at a solution like that instead of perpetuating the myth that the only way to cover everyone is through socialized medicine and some government managed and funded entity? Source

Switzerland, not Sweden. This current plan is not putting forward "socialized medicine" or a Medicare-for-all type program. And do you want mandates and being required to buy insurance? They have those there, and if you don't buy insurance, they fine you. In those countries, though, there are extremely strict controls on the private insurers and it is illegal for them to post a profit off the basic package. In fact, much of this is what conservatives are rallying against anyways as the Democratic plan is relatively close, although more conservative, to what they have in Switzerland and the Netherlands.

I dont have any problem with them buying health insurance as long as there are no tax-funded benefits involved. I know the credits are illegal for non-citizens in the bill, but again, put the enforcement in the bill also. State up front it takes specific forms of ID to receive any tax-funded benefits, and failure to do so will affect the recipient and the provider so everything is on the up and up. Or leave it as is so Mrs Butterworth at the local health office can turn a blind eye and sign anyone up she pleases. If its not a loophole put the verbage in anyway and cover the base, what does it hurt? This is one health reform issue that is bipartisan apparently, so again, why dont they just do it unless there is some other agenda?

I understand what the surveyUSA poll shows, I question the validity of it since the other polls dont even have numbers that high for reform, much less a specific part of reform. Unless you look at the democratic numbers that is.

Yes, that is kind of the point from the conservative side. Make the people pay for their insurance, not have tax payers do it for them. There are only controls in place on basic services. If I had to pick between the two, Id rather regulate the private industry some instead of growing the government, growing the deficit, and growing another layer of dependency on the government. How can you say the democratic plan is close to what they have? Its all private there, they arent saying "some form of public option or it wont work" like the left. Here is some further reading on their model, the more I find on it the more I like it. Its probably worth noting that the Dutch moved from a social medicine program to this regulated private model.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090912/...RlaG91c2VzdA--


well now he's gone even farther than anyone asked...thoughts?